Wednesday, November 15, 2006

Why not try Allah?

Here is another email from my inbox, recommending that I try Islam.


I am a Muslim woman and, thanks be to God, now am a practising Muslim, though earlier I saw Islam just like you or any one else would. Contrary to popular belief Islam believes in logic and reasoning because faith without logic is blind, and blind faith is the most disastrous on thing on earth. Today I am a person who believes in the reality of the true message of Islam and that Islam is not just another religion but the true message of God Almighty. But I came this far only because of questioning, which in turn strengthened my faith. Prophet Muhammad, may Allah be pleased with him, put it like this "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every single Muslim. Ponder, investigate and explore into the things created by God. Verily the ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr. Surely the scientist is on the correct way the way of God. Any of you who strives to recieve knowledge for him GOD WILL MAKE EASIER THE WAY TOWARDS HEAVEN and God will elavate them aloof of their kind."

I can prove to you in the very best and convincing ways of what is the truth and what is falsehood. Take this as an open challenge and do agree to reason and debate with me in the best of ways.

May God Almighty show you the straight path, the path of those whom he has favoured not of those who have earned his anger and have gone astray.




This sounds remarkably like the pleas made by many Christians. Subsititute a few words in the email above, and it would look like many emails promoting another faith. Christians are not the only ones claiming that logic is on their side.

My guess is that Pastor Al will be able to see right through this woman's claims, and could explain to us why Islam is not backed by science. And no doubt this writer could explain why Pastor Al is not backed by the facts. Could it be that neither of those claims of truth are backed by the facts?

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

“One person's meat is another's poison” so there is no general concensus on which is the RIGHT way. Everyone has their own free will and I think I've found my new belief. Thanks to frequent visits to this site and also discussions held with a friend.

--julnee

Anonymous said...

Obviously this challenge was directed to Merle, but being posted to the public blog I would very much have liked to take up such a challenge if time permitted me. Regrettably it does not. I feel strongly that I must quickly here encourage ALL to look much deeper. This is a subject I know about. My friendship with a Muslim I hold dearly, led me to study the Koran thoroughly. From my knowledge of the Bible in comparison with the Koran I can assure you that anyone reading and UNDERSTANDING the Bible would see the Koran for exactly what it is, a book of contradiction and deception and without doubt not authored by the same God as Moses and Jesus.

Let me introduce you to a man from a time much closer to the writing of the Koran than ours, born into Islam and very familiar with the Koran and its language.

Full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Razi

Zakariya ar Razi was a versatile Persian physician, philosopher, and scholar who made fundamental and enduring contributions to the fields of medicine, alchemy, and philosophy, recorded in over 184 books and articles in various fields of science. He was well versed in Greek medical knowledge and added substantially to it from his own observations. As an alchemist, Razi is credited with the discovery of sulfuric acid, the "work horse" of modern chemistry and chemical engineering. He also discovered ethanol and its refinement and use in medicine. He was unquestionably one of the greatest thinkers of the Islamic World, and had an enormous influence on European science and medicine. Razi was a pure rationalist, extremely confident of the power of reason; he was widely regarded by his contemporaries and biographers as liberal and free from any kind of prejudice, very bold and daring in expressing his ideas without a qualm. He believed in man, progress and in "God the Wise".

He is quoted elsewhere speaking first comparatively of the three writings– The Torah, The New Testament, and The Koran, then speaking solely of the Koran.

“The miracles of the prophets are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies. The falseness of what all the prophets say is evident in the fact that they contradict one another: one affirms what the other denies, and yet each claims to be the sole depository of the truth; thus the New Testament contradicts the Torah, the Koran the New Testament. AS FOR THE KORAN, it is but an assorted mixture of ‘ABSURD and INCONSISTENT FABLES,’ which has ridiculously been judged inimitable, when, in fact, its language, style, and its much-vaunted ‘eloquence’ are far from being faultless. Custom, tradition, and intellectual laziness lead men to follow their religious leaders blindly.” (caps mine)

Now it is understandable why he had difficulty with the Bible. It is no small task to decipher its intentioned complexities. But he was born into Islam, and the Koran the book of his faith.

I understand of the Bible a lot more than many do, but I also realise there is so much more hidden within its pages that I may never even see.
On a pure literary level, the Bible is the most incredible work of genius ever to have been written. It has been the inspiration for more literature (including the Koran, the Narnia series and The Da Vinci Code, the latter 2 recently adapted to cinema) than anything else throughout history. Between the Koran and the Bible there is no comparison.
From a spiritual level…well if one is considered literary genius and the other considered absurd, inconsistent, and faulty by not only the likes of Zakariya ar Razi, but also all those with a deeper level of Biblical understanding …then you the reader can decide which is more likely to be of value.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Merle,

I was enticed by your Einstein quote to consider you as a man in the sincere search for truth. The more I read from your site the more I see you are nothing but a fraud. Why you have taken this fraudulent stand against Christianity I do not know. Whatever the reason, the effect is clearly leading people in a direction away from Christianity. Much of what you portray is not valid. Clearly I do not have the time to refute every deception you contrive or I most certainly would.

Here is an obvious one that your readers can check for themselves. I have taken a copy of your original page, for future reference and here is it’s current link.

http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Bible1.html

The page is entitled “Is the Bible Perfect?”. Obviously it is more perfect in this instance than you here demonstrate yourself to be.

You edited out the relevant verses from the full section in 1 Samuel 21 1-6 leaving this hash which you claim to be a Biblical contradiction

1 Sam.21:1,6 Then David came to Nob to Ahimelech the priest; and Ahimelech came trembling to meet David and said to him, "Why are you alone and no one with you?"
6 So the priest gave him consecrated bread; for there was no bread there but the bread of the Presence which was removed from before the LORD, in order to put hot bread in its place when it was taken away.

Mt.12:3-4 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry , he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?



Please everyone,
Look up the full text 1 Samuel 21 in any online Bible and see for your self Mr Hertzler’s deceptive intent. Clearly there is no Biblical contradiction here and this is clearly not a mere error on Mr Hertzler's part. For a man who has read the Bible 6 times as he claims, he shows a considerable lack of understanding and could only benefit from the Bibles important lessons in the difference between light vs. darkness and truth vs. lies.

Honey

Merle Hertzler said...

"Honey"

Oh, I see, so this Muslim woman who told me that Islam is based on logic and reason was mistaken? You can see right through her claim that it is based on reason?

Ok, and she can see right through your claim that your view is based on reason? Hmmm.

Could it be that the proper response is for all to ask questions, and for all to turn to reason with open minds to see where it leads?

Merle

PS. Regarding the claim about 1 Samuel, yes, I encourage all to read the Biblical text for themselves. I would like to respond when I get more time.

Anonymous said...

Yes Merle.

The proper response, is exactly as I said in my comment

“I feel strongly that I must quickly here encourage ALL to look much deeper.”
“then you the reader can decide which is more likely to be of value.”

Honey

Merle Hertzler said...

Ah, yes, "Honey", you do encourage us to look deeper, but you seem to forget that your original words are loaded with venom against Islam.

You wrote:

"I can assure you that anyone reading and UNDERSTANDING the Bible would see the Koran for exactly what it is, a book of contradiction and deception"

You also wrote:

"if one [The Bible] is considered literary genius and the other [The Quran] considered absurd, inconsistent, and faulty by not only the likes of Zakariya ar Razi, but also all those with a deeper level of Biblical understanding …then you the reader can decide which is more likely to be of value." [elipsis yours]

And those are not words encouraging each to make up his own mind. They sharply condemn the logic of following the Quran.

On the other hand, the original writer I responded to insists that logic and reason leads one to follow Islam.

That is my point. You can be passionate that logic and reason lead to your side, but others are just as passionate that logic and reason lead to their side.

The original writer has not come on this board to leave any comments, but she continues to email me. In direct reponse to your comment she writes:

dont make hollow claims like"the Koran is full of contradictions". let me tell u that out of the 6000 verses of the Quran 1000 are scientific miracles. Ichallenge u to show me a single fact in the quran which is against established science .i have read the bible. any one who readsthe quran with an unbiased approach is surely to be convinced of its devine origin. this is surely the litmus test for the truth

Please understand, "Honey", that you are not the only one making the claim that logic leads clearly in your direction.

Anonymous said...

I don’t like the word logic in the context you are using it. Logic in an individual is not infinite but limited to a person’s range of knowledge. Being ill-informed of a matter does not necessarily make a person illogical. I don’t imply that anyone is illogical.

And no, you are incorrect. I strongly encourage everyone to make up their own mind. Not for one moment did I suggest that anyone take my word for what was being said. And yes, the words I used against the Quran expressed my strong conviction. For that I do not apologise. And as for my statement being hollow, if you understand what is clearly written in the Bible for all to see (although few see it), you will find that the Koran actually condemns itself. The internet is full of people who don’t understand the Bible, and thus Christianity, including many Christians. I am not here to explain it to them at this point in time, but I want to encourage people not to turn away in discouragement, because the truth contained in the Bible when discovered, leaves no room for doubt as to its Divine inspiration (and clearly they aren’t both of Divine origin). If I do this for just one person and they continue on with an open heart then it has been of some benefit. I don’t really care for the science of men in either the Bible or the Quran (although this is somewhat of a throw away line). My concern is for spiritual truth. But since your reader, to whom I send my sincere greetings, feels it important, I will kindly request from her an explanation as to what a ‘scientific miracle’ actually is, and could she please give us her greatest Quranic example (that doesn’t include embryos). And I would like to also ask your reader since she has read the Bible, what she believes is the significance of the Biblical story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?

Honey

Anonymous said...

Honey,
I quote this from you. if you understand what is clearly written in the Bible for all to see (although few see it), you will find that the Koran actualy condemns itself.
Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Thanks.

-julnee

LorMar said...

"The internet is full of people who don’t understand the Bible, and thus Christianity, including many Christians. I am not here to explain it to them at this point in time, but I want to encourage people not to turn away in discouragement, because the truth contained in the Bible when discovered, leaves no room for doubt as to its Divine inspiration (and clearly they aren’t both of Divine origin)."

Interesting point of view since there are things within the Bible that contradict Islam.

Just wanted to say hello Merle. Hope all is well.

Anonymous said...

To Julnee,

No I’m very sorry but at this stage I can’t. Though I see the time has arrived that the Philistines have sent out Goliath shouting down the ranks of Israel, and when the time comes, “all those gathered will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves”. My encouragement to you is this "Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine”

Honey

Anonymous said...

Honey,
I don't know what are Phillistines. So I cannot understand what "Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine” actually means. Sorry. Please explain if you have time.
--julnee

Anonymous said...

My response was written to you because you had asked the question, but the ‘my encouragement to you’ was a collective you, to those readers having an understanding of that which I speak and overwhelmed by the current positions taken by many on the internet against Christianity. I apologise that my wording was ambiguous.

To answer your question, the Philistines were a tribe of people who came out to fight against Israel, at which time they sent out their warrior Goliath to stand before them in challenge to Israel.

Julnee, I read one of your previous comments where you said you were a Christian until you found all the flaws in the Bible. I'm very sorry to hear this, and wonder if you care to share which flaw you consider was the most significant in your decision to turn from the faith.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Honey,
Thanks for the explanation. I heard of the David vs Goliath story before but didn't recall the name Phillistines. :)

Basically, there were a few main reasons that got me asking and thinking (chronologically):
1. Existance of dinosaurs.

2. How could all the animals species fit into Noah's Ark?

3. If God of the Bible created us, why were people in China not mentioned in them?

4. Inside me, I always felt there is no true salvation from Jesus because each church/denominations have different criteria, i.e., 1)baptism in water, 2)baptism of fire (which some churches claimed is baptism by holy spirit), 3)sufficient to just humbly admit Jesus is my saviour, 4)baptism after death (by request of Chrisian family members) could also allow the deceased to go to Heaven. (I've attended quite a handful of churches to search for the RIGHT one).

5. When prayers were not answered, it is because what I prayed for is not His Will. If they are answered, then it's because of God's grace. But, I find that my prayers are usually answered if I worked hard to achieve it.

6. How were the books in the Bible be decided to be included into the Bible? Why weren't other books written about Jesus included?

7. If Jesus is truly salvation, why would His followers not LOVE the others like what He told them to do? Why are there so many wars in this world that involves Christian?

8. Evidences (my friend recently introduced this idea to me) that Jesus learnt Buddhist teachings in India before returning to teach in Israel. This strengthened my idea that Buddha and Jesus is equivalent.

I apologise sincerely if anyone reading this is offended by my statements. For I do not want to create conflict but just letting Honey know what I made me decide and confirmed my belief of turning away from Christianity.

It was from the above reasons (1-7) and information from Merle's site that made me decide not to be a Christian anymore. Reason #8 came along after that, when I became more open to discussions about religion with a friend and no longer used blind faith to believe everything Jesus or the bible said.

--julnee

Merle Hertzler said...

Honey,

You say,

"Please everyone,
Look up the full text 1 Samuel 21 in any online Bible and see for your self Mr Hertzler’s deceptive intent."


So once more we find you turning to attacks on a person's character. Can you explain to me why you attack the intent of other people? When I see people that differ with me, I explain that I see things differently, and seek to know why the other person thinks the way she does. For some reason, you have been responding to differences by insulting the person who wrote something you think is false. Wouldn't it be better to discuss the issue? Why not engage in civil discourse, instead of attacking the other's intent? Can you help me understand why you do what you do?

Yes, I encourage people to read I Samuel 21, in context with chapters 20 and 22. There you will see that David was clearly alone when he left Jonathon, was alone when he came to the high priest (and lied about being on the king's business with the king's men) and was alone when he left the priest. But Matthew speaks of those that were with him. And that certainly is a contradiction, as far as I can tell. If you want to explain why you disagree, fine, then please do that.

Anonymous said...

You were the only one I accused of having deceptive intent, and it is because you include in your site a number of Biblical statements/verses you claim to be errors, for which if you ‘question’ you must know the truth. And who wouldn’t question something before they put it up on their web site? What should I say to someone who misleads people? I don't like deception.


David was a man in charge of 1000 men. 1 Samuel 18:13
He was by that time, practically home security. A man of his ranking, in charge of 1000 men in the king’s army does not travel alone. David would have at minimum three other men traveling with him at any times. There were no mobiles in those days (although 1 Samuel 19:7 does say Jonathon called David :)), so he would have had at least two messengers (to travel together in the event of a message being sent), and his right hand man, but likely someone to tend the horses as well.

To set the scene.

David had fled from Saul’s men when they arrived to kill him under Saul’s instructions, by climbing out a window. He traveled to Ramah where Saul pursued him but was detained by God. While Saul was detained, David returned to Jonathon the kings son. Saul had hidden the fact from Jonathon because he had sworn an oath to Jonathon not to harm David, so Jonathon did not believe David, that his father would do such a thing. The next day David was due to dine with Saul, so David and Jonathon hatched a plan that Jonathon might determine Saul’s intent. Jonathon would tell Saul when he asked about David’s absence that David had requested to travel home to Bethlehem. He would have had to have taken his entourage with him so as not to raise suspicion and sabotage the plan.
David could not send his men on at that point not knowing of the plans outcome and not wanting them to be seen when they were to have been elsewhere. They would have had to remain hidden not too far from David but away from public view. Once David spoke to Jonathon he could then decide what to do with his men. They couldn’t be sent back to Saul so they would have had to go into hiding with David.

So after meeting with Jonathon that morning, David rocks up to the priest, and check out the priest’s response! He is terrified to see David the warrior legend standing before him and his very first question, before David says a word to him is “Why are you alone?” But he is so stunned he asks again “Why is no one with you?”. David spins a fabrication (possibly for the priests protection), then explains that he has sent his men on to a certain place to meet him, then asks for five loaves of bread or whatever’s on hand. The priest brings into question the state of his men’s purity because the bread is consecrated and David doesn’t say no no the bread is just for me, they have already eaten. He says yes the men’s things are holy. So David gets the bread but sees one of Saul’s servants at the same place so tells the priest he has brought no weapons with him and asks for, and takes what the priest has.

Next it says that day David fled from Saul, went to the king of Gath but was recognized so put on the crazy man act to get out of there and headed up to hide in a cave. David at some stage sent some of his men up to tell his family where they were hiding because his family then came to see him.

THE END


Now the only objection I can think of to this would be that it doesn’t say David and his men. It says only David did this and that.

But look at 1 Samuel 19:8
‘Once more war broke out, and David went out and fought the Philistines. He struck them with such force that they fled before him.’

I guess that means he went out single handedly and fought them huh?

So it frequently doesn’t mention everyone there on the day, often only the main characters are noted.

Or perhaps you will say he lied to the priest because he had lied about the mission they were on. And then what – perhaps they were all actually standing out the side of the building? And then did he lie about wanting bread? Did he lie about wanting a weapon? One fabrication certainly doesn’t necessitate all to be, especially if the intent was to protect the priest.

So these are the facts:

* He was expected to have men with him at all times, even if he was only visiting a priest.

* He had to make the setup for Saul look genuine (he was very clever at plotting and planning).

* He told the priest he was meeting up with them. – He would have been less obvious walking through town without his men, and his men couldn’t walk up to the priest and ask for consecrated food.

* Someone with him who knew where he was hiding went and told his family.

* He knows he’s going to be the next king so he needs a couple of good men to watch his back

And if I’d been preparing to make a run from the King I’d have been taking as many of my most trusted men with me as I could.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Junlee,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. Would you care to discuss any of these? And if so may I ask with reference to number 8 what evidence you have for this claim your friend made?

Honey

Anonymous said...

Honey,

#1-7 are what made me doubt about Chrisitianity and the Bible. I haven't found any Christian resources that could clear those doubts without needing blind faith.

As for #8, let's make it clear that my friend respects Jesus for all the good things He has done. He has read many books regarding 'evidences' abt Jesus traveling to India and etc. These two are what I can recall.
1. Reincarnation: The Missing Link in Christianity
2. The Lost Years of Jesus: Documentary Evidence of Jesus' 17-Year Journey to the East

Also, I've read many sites about Jesus/Krishna/Buddha. If you are interested you can try searching. :)

OK, back to the evidence. Buddhist scrolls found by Nicolas Notovitch shows that Jesus was in India prior to teaching in Israel. And just as conveniently, the Four Gospels did not mention the years of Jesus' life from 12 years onwards till he was 30 years old. Shouldn't a Bible which is about God's Son should have his life detailed throughout? Isn't Jesus' life and how he grew up important?

Merle Hertzler said...

"Honey"

You certainly haven't proven that David was with other people in I Samuel 21. And so you haven't explained the contradiction.

"David had fled from Saul’s men when they arrived to kill him under Saul’s instructions, by climbing out a window. "

Exactly. According to the story he climbed out of his own window in the middle of the night to flee the men that King Saul had sent. Obviously he was alone at this point. His men were not sleeping with him and his wife. He is now a fugitive on his own.

"Jonathon would tell Saul when he asked about David’s absence that David had requested to travel home to Bethlehem. He would have had to have taken his entourage with him so as not to raise suspicion and sabotage the plan."

Well that is the story that Jonathon told Saul, but that is not what happened. Actually David was a fugitive at this time, fleeing the king. Nowhere does it say men were with him. And I don't see how an entourage would have helped him. He is hiding from the king at this point. Walking through town with your crew of men is not a good way to hide.

"David could not send his men on at that point not knowing of the plans outcome and not wanting them to be seen when they were to have been elsewhere. They would have had to remain hidden not too far from David but away from public view. Once David spoke to Jonathon he could then decide what to do with his men. They couldn’t be sent back to Saul so they would have had to go into hiding with David."

Now you have all these men in hiding with David? The Bible simply does not say that. It says that David was hiding, not David and a band of men. And David trusted only Jonathon with his location. He wouldn't even let Jonathon's armour bearer know where he was. He was hiding.

The story of David and Jonathon is well known. For years I have been taught that David was hiding alone. So were all my Sunday school teachers deceitful? Or were they simply teaching what this chapter clearly says?

"So after meeting with Jonathon that morning, David rocks up to the priest, and check out the priest’s response! He is terrified to see David the warrior legend standing before him and his very first question, before David says a word to him is “Why are you alone?” But he is so stunned he asks again “Why is no one with you?”. "

Well sure, the priest had not heard that David was now a fugitive. He expected David to still be in charge of his fighters. But we know different. He was fleeing Saul alone.

"Next it says that day David fled from Saul, went to the king of Gath but was recognized so put on the crazy man act to get out of there and headed up to hide in a cave."

Yes, he went to Gath and pretended to be crazy to keep from being recognized. Sure sounds to me like he was alone. Again, nowhere does it mention his entourage, or what they did when he acted crazy. If he wanted to keep from being recognized, showing up with an entourage is the last thing he wanted to do. And if the purpose was to keep from being recognized, then just one person acting crazy would accomplish nothing.

"David at some stage sent some of his men up to tell his family where they were hiding because his family then came to see him."

Again you simply made this up. Nowhere does the Bible say anything about him sending men to his family. It only tells us that his family heard where he was.

So the obvious sense of this passage is that David was alone in Chapter 21, thus contradicting what Matthew says.

So no, I was not being deceitful when I mentioned what I Samuel 21 says.

Merle

Anonymous said...

Merle,
Thanks for your clarification. Your explanations makes more sense because if someone were to run away from his enemy, he would have traveled alone so as not to alert his enemy.

--julnee

Anonymous said...

Merle,

You agreed that the priest expected David to be with his men.
Of course he did. And if the priest expected David to be with his men then so too would Saul. If their plan was to be believable David must have his men with him. You are talking about three men of strategy, Saul, Jonathon and David. You must take both David and Jonathon for absolute fools if you think that they missed this integral detail in their plan. And David was clearly more cunning than Saul, eluding capture by Saul on all occasions, even being in Saul’s presence without his knowledge.

He had opportunity to get his men while Saul was detained. Yes you mentioned that David would be a bit obvious going through town with his men, that first day he took flight, and that is legitimate reason for him to send his men on and go to the priest without them just as he said he did. If he did this once, it is logical that he did this also when he went to the king of Gath. It is also a logical proposition that David at the point of going to the king, sent his men off to his family to warn them to be prepared that Saul would be looking for him, and informing them of the location he would be hiding. Not once does the text actually assert (omission is not assertion as I demonstrated – see also 2 Samuel 8 for a great deal of omission) that David was alone for this period of days.

IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TO BE EXPLICITLY TRUE THEN THESE ARE THE PROBLEMS WITHIN THE TEXT

1. The text does not assert that David was alone for the period of days up until he enters the cave. (again, omission is not an assertion)

2. David and Jonathon’s plan had no credibility

3. You claim the opposite to what David actually says

4. David gave up an opportunity to take his trusted men with him but then amassed 400 others (seems illogical).

5. Some explanation needs to be given as to how his family knew his whereabouts when he was hiding.

Your assumption is based on two textual details only

1. That there was no other person mentioned in the text with David
(There are numerous texts that could be cited demonstrating that omission cannot be taken to equal nonexistence)

2. That David lied to the priest
(This cannot be determined. David states in the text that he had sent his men on and would meet up with them)

In my mind your claim flies in the face of the logic within the text as outlined by my five points. In fact if my suggested logical sequence of events is correct then the text is consistent with what Jesus said.

For yourself at the very most the text raises question. Unless you can confirm as false David’s statement that his men were sent to wait for him elsewhere, then you have no basis upon which to definitively assert that the text is a contradiction. And even if your claim that he lied were plausible, then it still raises more unanswerable questions - unlike my proposition which instead answers the questions.

Yes I made it up in as much as it is a logical explanation to the text. Just as you made up that he had no men with him during these days, when he said that he did, which as shown only leaves more questions than answers.

It is deceitful unless it is a definitive contradiction, which it clearly is not.

NOTE: Jonathon’s armour bearer could not know the location because he had to return with Jonathon to Saul. David’s men would not be returning so it was not the same compromise.

Julnee,.

The whole point is that David was a man who was expected to have men traveling with him at all times, which the text indicates. If he was not to alert his enemy that he was in hiding and had not gone to Bethlehem as was the claim, then his men would need to be missing from their base post. If Saul (the enemy) could see that all David’s entourage of men were accounted for and that none had traveled with David, then Saul would be alerted to the fact that David had not gone to Bethlehem as claimed but was on the run. David was a warrior. It was not difficult for David to hide his men. In fact the very next chapter says that he amassed 400 men while he was in hiding. (This number increased greatly with time).

1 Samuel 22:2. All those who were in distress or in debt or discontented gathered around him, and he became their leader. About four hundred men were with him.


Merle,

Can you attest that this text unequivocally demonstrates that David was alone in his flight from Saul?

Honey

Anonymous said...

Julnee,

Thank you again for your reply. I am sure that you have read much with regard to Buddhism.
There is an astonishing amount of information available on the internet. I know the message of the Bible well, and believe it to be the truth. Unfortunately much of what can be found in books and on the internet is far from true. Many people write many books all claiming something different, but there is none that can compare to the Bible when you have an understanding of it’s masterful complexity. When you believe in the Bible, you also see that the spiritual forces of darkness have contrived every manner of deception available to deter people from believing the truth. I often feel like I’m doing an autopsy when reading much information, dissecting through masses, putting anything that looks questionable under the microscope to determine its legitimacy and its intent. The absolutely astronomical amounts of speculation and allegation with regards to Jesus Christ, only in my mind assist to strongly confirm that there is intervention beyond the human realm involved. Jesus Christ is without doubt the most revered and opposed man that ever walked the earth – even a blind man could sense that there is something going on with this Jesus.

The facts I find regarding the document/scrolls you mentioned are:

1. There was one apparently confirmed document

2. It is dated at being not from before the 7th century - 500 years later than the New Testament documents.

3. It gives no eyewitness accounts of Jesus being in India or Tibet, but is based on hearsay by traveling merchants.

There are a group of other texts often used as evidence to support the claim that Jesus was in India, but none of these texts stand up under serious scrutiny some being dated as late as the 18th century.

Buddhism/India (or anything else you care to add to the list) would not be the first or the last to lay claim to a Jesus visit. It is only one religion/country (as previously stated) in a list of wishful thinkers, (including the Mormons, who claimed he went to the Americas) who insist that Jesus was in their midst. Unfortunately for them, Jesus made it very clear he had not been sent to teach throughout the world or travel gaining knowledge.

Matthew 15
2A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for

I understand that because you have doubts about the Bible’s authenticity as the word of God, that what I have said above will probably not impress on you. I can only again encourage you not to disregard the Bible because of what you are unable to harmonize of it’s teachings at this point in time, as I know from personal experience that the more a matter in the Bible is studied with an open heart the more spiritual truth is gained. Also be very aware that there are forces beyond our sight that motivate people to deceive, and I can hear the cries going up “that’s exactly what Christianity does”, but look at that claim objectively. Pure Christianity insists on truth and love for his fellow mankind, what is to be gained from such deception of leading people into truth and love? And of what the outcome of such deception other than that people are motivated to tell the truth and love their neighbour. Sure, there are plenty of people motivated to USE Christianity to their own immoral end, but then that is clearly humanity ABUSING Christianity – there is an ENORMOUS difference.

I hope what I say can be of some encouragement to you, even if it is only that you thoroughly investigate from many perspectives what you finally decide to accept as truth.

Sincerely,
Honey

PS. I know Jesus was a carpenter, the son of a carpenter. I imagine that the disciples found that his activities in this area of his preministry years to have been of no significant spiritual value, so decided it better not to detract from the spiritual content of His message by including the narration of such. I consider it as no loss other than to clear up the question of his whereabouts at that time, for those who would ask, but the reality is that people could ask for account of every minute of every day that he walked the Earth and it still would not be enough to satisfy their doubt. That is the nature of the ‘where was he’ beast.

In fact if the general consensus among non believers is that this is very relevant information that should have been included, then I suggest that only points to the authenticity of the Bible and away from it being a fraudulent creation devised to deceive, as clearly it missed the ‘what seems obvious to all’ expectation.

Anonymous said...

Honey,
Just a quick reply to you first before I read your reply in detail.
Thank you very much for willing to discuss these issues with me. :) Jesus would be proud for having a follower like you, who did not judge me like others would or force your belief on me. I appreciate how you patiently explained things to me.

--julnee

Anonymous said...

Dear Honey & Merle,
I would love to hear more from both of you regarding David's men. I have not read those books so I would be glad if this could be cleared.

Honey,
I've read your replies on the story about Jesus in India. I do think what you said could be possible too. Of course, I do not believe Jesus was in India right away when my friend told me that. I also asked him how would Jesus go to India when there wasn't airplanes like we do now. His answer was that Jesus traveled with merchants. Quite believable.

As for the missing story about Jesus, I think that even if Jesus was just a lowly carpenter and his followers didn't think there was any spiritual importance in this to be included in the Bible, I do think if they wrote out how Jesus portrayed Himself when He was growing up was important too. Like, whether He was dedicated in His work as a carpenter, why he wasn't married etc. Get what I mean? We could learn a lot more abt Jesus from these.

Matthew 15
2A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for

May I know what were you trying to tell me? The passage wasn't complete.

--julnee

Anonymous said...

Ah, yeah sorry :-S. Thanks for pointing that out. I must have words with my editor :).

Matthew 15

22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL." (caps mine)

That was what I had intended to include before my thumbs took over from the brain.

But I would also like to show Jesus compasion, so here is the rest of the story.

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Honey. :)
--julnee

Merle Hertzler said...

Honey,

"You are talking about three men of strategy, Saul, Jonathon and David."

Well, actually, we are talking about what well may be 3 fictional characters. Archeology shows that Jerusalem and the surrounding area consisted of little more than small villages of sheepherders at the time of David. So if these men existed at all, they had nowhere near the glory attributed to them in the Bible. The advances in Jewish culture began later, and further north, in the reign of Ahab.

"Can you attest that this text unequivocally demonstrates that David was alone in his flight from Saul?"

I think anybody who reads the text of I Samuel for what it says will come to the conclusion that David was alone, in contradiction with Matthew. Yes, of course you can come up with an interpretation that avoids the conflict. Similarly, someone at this site concluded that Judas dived unto a sharp stake in the ground and this constituted the "hanging" referred to in Matthew. One can come up with similar stretches to explain every contradiction I pointed out, but when one has to believe that every one of these far-fetched explanations is true to avoid the conclusion that there are errors, it is easier to me to admit the errors.

Merle

LorMar said...

I too find it very hard to believe that Christ went to India and was taught by Buddha. Besides, I thought the Buddha lived and died before Christ was born.

LorMar

Anonymous said...

Oh, of course not taught directly by Buddha, but by Buddhist monks.

--julnee

P/S: The statement above may or may not be correct. I still need more proof before I believe in that too. And don't take what I said as correct too because I am still 'learning' and that was what I understood from my friend. :)

Anonymous said...

Actually Merle, it would be deceitful of you to just claim errors with no substantiation. Really the onus is on you to support your claim.

And God demonstrates and even states, that He does not write to be easily understood by the masses, but by those who lean on Him for understanding.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter.

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

So we arrive at the clincher. We have seen that your assertion hangs precariously on this apparent fabrication, spun to deceive the priest that he was on ‘the king’s mission’. Here then is the question of the day – Did David in fact lie to the priest?

Psalm 5
A Psalm of David
2 Listen to my cry for help,
my King and my God,
for to you I pray.
3 In the morning, O LORD, you hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before you
and wait in expectation.
6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

In verse 6 we see clearly that David knows those who tell lies are abhorred by the LORD.

And Samuel had already anointed David as chosen by God to be the next king because David was a man after God’s own heart. 1 Samuel 13:14

Is it likely a man after God’s own heart would up and lie to the priest of God? I think not, so there must be another explanation. Look back at verse 2 of Psalm 5. David says to God “My King and my God”.

Now here are two more texts from the same book as the story of David which we are discussing.

1 Samuel 8:6
But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day

1 Samuel 12:12
"But when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites was moving against you, you said to me, 'No, we want a king to rule over us'-even though the LORD your God was your king.

Both these texts describe God as being King over Israel, but rejected by the people.

Now we see David ‘a man after God’s own heart’, did not reject God as his supreme King.

And look at the Psalm of David, Psalm 17

Psalm 17
A prayer of David.
1 Hear, O LORD, my righteous plea;
listen to my cry.
Give ear to my prayer—
it does not rise from deceitful lips.
6 I call on you, O God, for you will answer me;
give ear to me and hear my prayer.

David trusts in God to answer his prayer because his prayer does not rise from deceitful lips.
But then look at this Psalm.

Psalm 57
Of David. … When he had fled from Saul into the cave.
1 Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me,
for in you my soul takes refuge.
I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings
until the disaster has passed.
2 I cry out to God Most High,
to God, who fulfills {his purpose} for me.

Look when it was written – ‘When he had fled from Saul into the cave’
David says “I cry out to God, who fulfills his purpose for me.”
Throughout David’s life the Bible records David as seeking out the Lord’s direction.

So instead of his reply to the priest being a lie, he was in fact following the instructions of his ‘Supreme King.’, God.

And here is the final word on the matter.In that same Psalm 57, written when he had fled from Saul, what does David say?

4 I am in the midst of lions;
I lie among ravenous beasts—
men whose teeth are spears and arrows,
whose tongues are sharp swords.

Could these men, with tongues as sharp as swords be David’s own men;
the very men he claimed he had sent on?

These men pumped to the max, following David in flight from Saul their king, you can imagine the words coming out of their mouths, the revenge they would have been plotting on Saul for trying to kill the Lords anointed.

But look at David’s heart when he and his men finally come across Saul

1 Samuel 24
4 The men said, "This is the day the LORD spoke of when he said to you, 'I will give your enemy into your hands for you to deal with as you wish.' " Then David crept up unnoticed and cut off a corner of Saul's robe.
5 Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe. 6 He said to his men, "The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD's anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the LORD." 7 With these words DAVID REBUKED HIS MEN AND DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO ATTACK SAUL. (caps mine) And Saul left the cave and went his way.

David did not lie to the priest the day he fled from Saul. He was clearly a man in the service of his KING, the God of Isreal

Psalm 47
2 How awesome is the LORD Most High,
the great King over all the earth!
7 For God is the King of all the earth;
sing to him a psalm of praise.

It is easy to see how Jesus came to his conclusion. He knew David's heart, for Jesus himself is ‘THE KING OF THE JEWS” (Caps not mine) Matthew 27:11-26

I’m sorry to say Merle, there is now nothing left on which you may support your claim.

And the Bible has been demonstrated to be a much deeper Book than you are capable of fathoming without God's help.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Merle, Merle, Merle,

It would seem you have been reading too much archeological minimalist literature, or perhaps it is just the ‘death to Christianity’ web sites. Either way it is a preposterous claim that Saul, Jonathon or David were possibly fictitious. The Biblical evidence alone is staggeringly strong. Then we have the two steles, one makes definite reference to ‘The House of David’ and the other states ‘The House of –avid’ The D having been broken off the stone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Dan_Stele

Then we have David’s Palace

http://www.momentmag.com/olam/Apr06/MOM-2006-04_mazar.html

Of course as with anything to do with the Bible we can always rely on the Archeological Lunatic Fringe to go to extreme lengths to deny any existence of God or anything that could be associated with Him.

This should come as no surprise; there are those who question the existence of Shakespeare, those who say man didn’t walk on the moon, and even those who deny the atrocities of the Nazi Regime. Seems you’re working your way into this delusional category Merle.

There are several other legitimate archeological discoveries that support the Old Testament Biblical stories, and also legitimate reasons why much more can’t be found but I just don’t have the time for everything (she says pulling out her hair).

Lets not lose sight of the fact. There is evidence.

Honey

LorMar said...

"Oh, of course not taught directly by Buddha, but by Buddhist monks.

--julnee

P/S: The statement above may or may not be correct. I still need more proof before I believe in that too. And don't take what I said as correct too because I am still 'learning' and that was what I understood from my friend. :) "

I am still learning as well. ;-)

LorMar