Thursday, October 12, 2006

"You only threw up your hands in the air "

I received an email telling me that I have only thrown my hands up in the air.
I read your website. I understand your feelings. You encourage your readers to continue educating themselves. How about you? All of those so called discrepancies you found in the Bible, did you ever bother asking a theologian or researching for an answer? Because if you did, you would have found the answers. Instead, you only threw up your hands in the air and came to your own narrow conclusions.
He asks if I researched the matter, and then declares authoritatively that I did not. Excuse me, but how does he know that I did not? Shouldn't he have waited for my answer before reaching his conclusion? I can assure this man that I have indeed researched the Christian answers, including reading many books, visiting a pastor, and spending many hours in debate. My conclusions are not based on giving up and accepting whatever narrow conclusions were presented to me.
How long do you think, you can remain in your own Godless world where now you are god?

Me god? Seriously? If I am god, why does this world often seem different from what I want?
In other words, after all has been said and done, you still have to contend with the condition of your heart.
And what exactly is the condition of my heart? According to the old school of Christian thought, I am a worthless sinner with nothing good inside my heart, and I need to feel shame for my rottenness. According to the new school of Christian thought, I am a worthy person needing to develop my self-esteem and start realizing my own goodness. Which of these two schools of Christian thought is this man supporting? Unless he tells me, I don't know whether he thinks I should increase my self-esteem or decrease it.

I don't mean to accuse you or judge you, I am just making a point. I once found myself as you did and there are millions of spiritually lost people in such a state.
He found himself like me? Had he at one time adopted humanism after a thorough study of the options? If so, what caused him to change his mind and abandon humanism?

And if he was a dedicated humanist that changed his mind, did he just throw his hands up in the air when he found a new philosophy, or did he study humanism diligently to see if it had answers to the challenges?
About 2 years ago, I found answers to many of your questions, emotions, reasoning, and feelings. I wrote a book about it. I also entered the christian ministry. I've been a pastor close to 2 years. I have found peace, joy, and love like I never imagined and I would like to take you into my spiritual journey (Maybe I should set up my own website). If you email me your PO box number or address, I will give you my book.
I am grateful for the offer, but perhaps he is not aware how much I have read from Christian apologetics. Perhaps if he would share one of the arguments in his book with us, we could determine if he has indeed made a new and convincing case.

I have written him an email asking him to respond to this blog entry. We will see if he can indeed provide us with a convincing argument, one that can be ignored only by those who throw their hands up in the air.

58 comments:

Pastor AL said...

Merle,
Thank you for your reply. I am pastor Alfredo Martinez Jr. You can call me AL.
Let's discuss evolution. On your website you mentioned you were once a defender of creation and your argument was the genetic code until you realized that there were intermediate forms. What happened to your genetic code argument? The genetic code argument is stronger than ever. So strong that it makes it impossible for one species to evolve into another species. Yes, I believe in micro-evolution but we are talking about macro-evolution. According to genetics it is impossible for species to evolve into other species. Therefore, how can you have dug up intermediate forms? You still have to prove that it can happen in genetics. Mutations? It only harms and weakens the organism. It has no wisdom or effect on the DNA to enable it to evolve into a higher form. "....there is an enormous probability problem at the core of Darwinist theory, which has been cited by HUNDREDS of scientist and professionals...who have looked without prejudice at the notion of such variations producing ever more complex organisms have come to the same conclusion; THE EVOLUTIONISTS ARE ASSUMING THE IMPOSSIBLE." ...William, Fix, pg 196, The Bone Peddlers.

There are no intermediate forms because it is proven by genetics that it is impossible. There are deformed humans, there are extinct animals and then there are hoaxes like Piltdown man. That is why, not one top evolutionist or scientist have any evidence to prove evolution. It is all in the imagination where they exercise faith. One evolutionist said, "Evolution is true...because I am here." That is not science, that is a religion.

Merle, can you see the beauty in DNA? It is impossible for a single cell to have spontaneously developed because the DNA is complicated. It is a code or a language that could only have been given by a superior mind. Can time think? Time has no wisdom no matter how many million of years pass. Evolution goes against the law of biogenesis and the law of entropy. According to the Scientific Method, Evolution should be discarded as a theory. All experiments have failed to produce life or higher forms due to mutations. Evolution and creation should be taken out of science class and placed in philosophy because you can't prove them and they both require faith.
Now, as a previous christian you should have known that God is a spirit. He made our physical world to sustain us. He is not subject to our physical world. He made time yet he is eternal. This physical world could not have been made by physical means. A spirit, known as God, created it by faith in his own words. Our minds will never completely understand the power and wisdom of God. Yet, it is evident in creation. Even your brain testifies of God's wisdom. Nothing compares to the human brain. It is awesome. It is our responsibility to use it wisely.

Our minds will never fully understand all mysteries. Our minds will never understand the wisdom and power of God. Our minds can deceive us by our own ego. Our minds will never believe in God. Even if God appeared to you in a burning bush, your mind will find a way to disprove his existence. Even if there is solid prove of miracles such as the opening of the Red Sea, our minds would find a way to covince us that it did not happen, yet Israel exists today because of the power of God.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be." Rom 8:7. Here we understand that our very own mind in not only God's enemy but our enemy. Our mind wants details and details and facts and facts. It will never stop. You have to stop at one point and simply trust in God. Our minds will never produce faith but our hearts will. Salvation comes by faith. This faith comes from the heart and not the mind. "...the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth and in thy heart, that is the word of faith which we preach. That if thou shall confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom. 10:8-9.

TigerNooga said...

Merle, I will let you respond to the DNA and evolution thing. I am not learned in that area.

However Al, your last paragraph, I just had to reply to that. What a bunch of hooey. Basically Al, you have just told me that the Word of God, the things of God, and in fact God, will never make sense to us, so you must simply believe it anyway? What?

So, all the errors, contradictions, moral problems, mistakes, scientific errors, prophecies which never came true, and outright fabrications in the Bible can simply be chalked up to man's lack of understanding, so we should simply believe it anyway.

Why even read the Bible then? Why even listen to ministers like you, who don't understand it either? Why listen to Bible teachers who will never understand it either? Why have Bible Colleges, because they will never understand it either?

Either you believe it, or you don't, right AL.

What if my heart tells me that Islam is the true religion? What if my heart tells me that only Buddhism is right path? I mean, as you said we must trust our hearts, right Al, not our minds.

It is a crying shame that God gave me, and many others, (more intelligent than I), this mind, which can be used to figure out many complex and intricate things in this world, but for some reason I am not allowed to use it to understand the very book which he supposedly sent to us, to help us understand God.


God:
“Here is my book which is written about me. You will never be able to understand it with your little brains, but you better believe it, or I will burn you in hell forever, so study it.”

Pastor AL said...

Tigernooga,
Please do not go to extremes. What I meant is that you will not understand God with your mind. We have yet to explore his handy work as the universe, DNA, the human body is still a complicated, wonderful organism. It will take life times to even discern the wisdom in the creation. Imagine now trying to discern the God that made the creation. He is beyond our imagination. Our minds will never grasp how awesome God is. Nevertheless, everything that we can know, he gave us the Bible. In it we find all the answers pertaining to who we are, where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going. If you really have an open mind. Read my book, "Walking on Water" by Alfredo Martinez Jr. Order toll free (877)421-7323.

Merle Hertzler said...

Al,

You object to evolution, but what do you put in its place?

Mainstream science says that the modern horse and zebra evolved from a small animal similar to a fox, known as Hyracatherium. Where do you think the first zebra came from? Did it suddenly pop into existence out of nowhere? If so, may I remind you that the sudden emergence of zebras out of nothing is a violation of the laws of nature? Are not such creations of animals completely impossible? You might argue that they would be impossible, but not if you add God to the picture. Okay, and what if you add God to the evolution picture? Would you still insist that evolution is impossible, and that it is even too hard for God? No? Then why should anyone reject evolution because you perceive it to be impossible (unless God it) to embrace a creationist scheme that is clearly impossible (unless God it)?

So your argument-from-impossibility seems to be vacuous. We must first look at the evidence to see how the first zebra, for instance, came into existence. Once we establish that point from the evidence--and I think we will clearly see that the zebra came as a result of evolution--we can ask whether God needed to push the process along, or whether it could have been driven by nature.

Let's look at your arguments, which are shown in bold.

Let's discuss evolution. On your website you mentioned you were once a defender of creation and your argument was the genetic code until you realized that there were intermediate forms. What happened to your genetic code argument? The genetic code argument is stronger than ever. So strong that it makes it impossible for one species to evolve into another species.

When I was a creationist, my argument from the genetic code was weak. It was based on an analogy with high level computer codes. It is true that higher language codes cannot easily be modified one byte at a time with each state of the code being viable. But that analogy does not apply to life. Life forms can change their code one codon at a time, and still yield viable creatures. I abandoned my argument, because my argument was not valid.

Yes, I believe in micro-evolution but we are talking about macro-evolution.

What do you call billions of years of micro-evolution? Would that not produce macro-evolution?

According to genetics it is impossible for species to evolve into other species. Therefore, how can you have dug up intermediate forms? You still have to prove that it can happen in genetics.

New species have evolved. See http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html

Mutations? It only harms and weakens the organism. It has no wisdom or effect on the DNA to enable it to evolve into a higher form.

Many mutations are neutral, and some are beneficial. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html.

There are no intermediate forms because it is proven by genetics that it is impossible. There are deformed humans, there are extinct animals and then there are hoaxes like Piltdown man.

How do you explain all of the fossil animals similar to modern horses and zebras? What are the Hyracotherium, Epihippus, Mesohippus , Miohippus, Merychippus, and Dinohippus, if not intermediates? And why do we find those creatures buried in strata older than 2 million years, but no modern horses there? And why do we find modern horses in strata younger than 2 million years, but no Hyracatherium? And why is there a progression in these fossils, if they are not intermediates? See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html.

That is why, not one top evolutionist or scientist have any evidence to prove evolution. It is all in the imagination where they exercise faith.

I thought you said you were once where I am. How is it that you appear to be unaware of the vast evidence for evolution? See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/.

Merle, can you see the beauty in DNA? It is impossible for a single cell to have spontaneously developed because the DNA is complicated. It is a code or a language that could only have been given by a superior mind. Can time think? Time has no wisdom no matter how many million of years pass.

The beauty of DNA? Well, it does some beautiful things, but it is often not a work of beauty. Our genes have large portions of junk introns inserted into the code. Our cells must cut this junk out every time they use the code. It works, but the process is not exactly a marvel of beauty and efficiency.

Evolution goes against the law of bio-genesis and the law of entropy. According to the Scientific Method, Evolution should be discarded as a theory.

The laws of bio-genesis say that complex creatures do not rise instantly out of raw materials. They in no way say that evolution is impossible. Entropy (randomness)does not need to increase where there is a flow of energy through the system. There is plenty of energy flowing into and away from the earth. So evolution does not violate these laws.

And now you tell me: How about the concept of instant creation of zebras out of nothing? That would seem to me to be a massive violation of the laws of nature. If violation of the laws of nature eliminates a hypothesis, it seems the instant creation hypothesis has been eliminated.

Our minds will never believe in God. Even if God appeared to you in a burning bush, your mind will find a way to disprove his existence. Even if there is solid prove of miracles such as the opening of the Red Sea, our minds would find a way to convince us that it did not happen, yet Israel exists today because of the power of God.

If the Red Sea were to part, and it was clearly documented, we would all believe that the being that did that would be marvelous. But would this prove that this being created the universe? It would seem that, to establish that claim, we should rightfully ask for more evidence.

And by the way, the evidence indicates that the Israelites slowly infiltrated Canaan, and did not invade in a massive army coming through the Red Sea and Sinai as the Bible says.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be." Rom 8:7. Here we understand that our very own mind in not only God's enemy but our enemy.

I am sorry you see the human mind as the enemy of God and self. I see the human mind as the crowning glory of the universe. That is why I am a humanist.

Our mind wants details and details and facts and facts. It will never stop. You have to stop at one point and simply trust in God.

Years ago many died of small pox. Some people simply trusted God, and learned to have faith that God was allowing all this death for his mysterious purposes.

Others studied small pox, wanting details and facts. They found out what caused the disease, and how to cure it. I am glad they did not stop and simply trust God. I am glad they wanted the details and facts

Details and facts: You would not have a computer if folks like Maxwell did not seek out details and facts. I love details and facts..

Olivia said...

hello,
sorry i actually didn't read the whole thing... cus i'm really not a science person.. but i just read the last part to Merle's reply (and forgive me if i'm takign things the wrong way for not reading it through) but i think regarding:

"Years ago many died of small pox. Some people simply trusted God, and learned to have faith that God was allowing all this death for his mysterious purposes.

Others studied small pox, wanting details and facts. They found out what caused the disease, and how to cure it. I am glad they did not stop and simply trust God. I am glad they wanted the details and facts

Details and facts: You would not have a computer if folks like Maxwell did not seek out details and facts. I love details and facts.."

there is the factor that... should God truly exist, then while he 'allowed' for the deaths to happen, he also 'allowed' for those people to 'seek out details and facts' which came up with the cures for small pox and people don't have to be christians for God to use them...

but anyway.. in the face of if there is a God (which for me i do believe is the case) I think it is better to die believing than to be cured (in the case of small pox) but not to believe.. but of coures it'll be good to believe and to live.. but anywya.. that is besides the point.. and you're probably wishing i wouldn't post irrelevent stuff on your blog.. but i just felt like participating.. =p

Olivia

ooh and regarding the "carnal mind".. i dont' think that's equivalent to the "human mind".. because God gave us a mind to use, to think, to question.. so if we use the mind for more 'Godly' thoughts then it wouldn't be our enemy.. but i think carnal is more.. hmm.. hard to explain.. but just stuff that would lead you away from God.. like more material stuff rather than spiritual... sorry bad at explaining things which is probably bad considering you like evidence and stuff.. but um.. i can't..

Pastor AL said...

I have read all those evolutionists theories and assumptions and I suppose you read the counter arguments. If not I can refer you to websites that debunks all your arguments or look up creationist viewpoints in the internet. We are writing passed each other on that topic.

quote: "I see the human mind as the crowning glory of the universe."
Merle, the mind, God created for man to discern not only medicine to cure, the elements of the earth to manufacture and the elements of nature to create power. Can't you see that it is God who made it all and it is God that gave us the ability to discern it all.

However, he can not make us praise him with this wisdom nor take our self center ego. It is blind pride or human nature to take credit for all the human achievements and not see the big picture. Spiritual wisdom is to understand that the mind and the ability to discern came from God. The highest discernment is knowing how to obey God on this earth.

Merle, as beautiful as our minds can be it will still make bad decisions. Don't tell me that just because you read a hundred books that you are now incapable of making bad decisions. You are still human and becoming weaker because of the law of entropy.

When I understood that my intelligence could not gaurantee me eternity and that I was only human (we can't even stop to breathe God's air for a few minutes or else we die)I decided to repent of my evil ways and practice his ways. God listens and draws close to a sincere repentful heart. Pride will do nobody any good. We are placed on this earth for a moment of time not to do evil in the eyes of God but to do good. To love and help our neighbors. This will bring the Spirit of God into our lives and remove the spirit of hate, anger, bitterness, and frustration.

You encourage your readers to make the most of the moment. How exactly do you do that? To live without seeking God is vanity. The moment is not important. Moments will pass into days, into years. In a hundred years from now, What is important? In a thousand years? In a billion years? In a time when all stars burned up there energy. What is important? A selfish moment? Without God, you only have moments but they will pass by. You have no hope and you give your readers no hope.

Here is a thought to set your mind free. What if you are wrong regarding eternity? Would that be the greatest mistake in your life? - to live eternally separated from God just because you could not conquer your pride. You will never find God with your mind, you will find God with a humble heart. God is not in the world of reason. You are too much in the mind. God is in another dimension which is of faith and he declares that it is impossible to please him without faith (Heb.11).

Due to the advancement of technology, 1 out 4 people who are resucitated tell, with incredible detail, their out of body experience. It is not a psychological thing, because they are able to quote and describe what people said or did while they were clinicly dead. Dr. Maurice has documented many of these and wrote many books of the subject such as, "Life after Life." Due to his encounters with people who had NDE, he eventually accepted Jesus Christ into his heart.

Read my book and use your mind to discern God's ways. You are incredibly intelligent. Use it to learn how to obey God and thereby lead your readers to eternity. At the moment, you are not helping your readers. "Walking on Water" by Alfredo Martinez Jr. toll free(877)421-7323

Regarding the questions you had on the bible not being accurate. Re-study that. For example, there is a difference between the Old and New testament. The old testament was God dealing specifically with Israel. All those rules and regulations was for Israel only. So you could ask a rabbi or a Jewish person how they keep from wearing wool mixed with linen. Or in a couple of years you can ask God why he did what he did. (Hint: he'll probably say, because I am God).

The new testament is for those who accept Jesus Christ. The Old was a shadow of things to come. The old pointed to Jesus Christ and the old taught us about the character of God. The new testament declares that it is no longer a circumcision of the flesh but of the heart (Rom. 2:28-29)

You mention that the bible contradicts how Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus died. In Mat. 27:5 it says he hanged himself and in acts 1:18 he threw himself and his bowels gushed out. If I show you that it does not contradict itself, will you have the maturity or character to remove it from your website as a discreptancy? Better yet, will you give your life back to the service of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

The expression of "hang" has different meaning in time periods and cultures. At that time and in that culture "hang" meant basically what it means today. If I told you to hang a picture, how would you hang it? You drive a nail in the wall and hang it. That is what the meaning hang is given in Mat 27:5 and Acts 1:18. Judas drove a stake in the ground, sharpened it and fell on it. He hanged himself on a stake and his bowels gushed out. Here is more proof. Was Jesus Crucified or hanged? Using our previous example, Jesus was both because both mean the same thing. They drove stakes through him and hanged him on the cross. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus who you slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30

Merle, train your mind to focus on what is the point or the spirit in which the word of God is written. For example: is it really important how Judas Iscariot killed himself? Aren't you missing the point why he killed himself? Aren't you missing the point of the story? That Jesus Christ was betrayed, died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day victorious and triumphant!

God's wisdom and power blows our mind and many can't handle it.

TigerNooga said...

Here are the major points for me.
If the Bible were really Words from a perfect God, to teach us about him, then it would be easily and perfectly understandable. Not the opposite, like we have now.

No other book has caused as much controversy, or spawned as many denominations with such varying interpretations as this book. In fact every reader who reads it has a different interpretation.

I don't know if there is a God or not, but I think that if he were to write a book, it would just be a lot better than this.

It is not consistent in its message.
It is not consistent in its treatment of women, or humans in general.
It has scientific errors.
It has contradictions.
It has fabrications.
It has morally repugnant statements, and ideals.


Even if we leave evolution aside for a moment, just take a look at the fossil record, and the geologic column. Both of these refute the 6 day, or young earth creation. It simply could not have happened like the Bible says it did, and have the geologic column laid down like it is.

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

I responded to you at http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/pastoral.html. I invite you to leave a response here on the blog, or to send me an email that I can post at my site.

Merle

Merle Hertzler said...

Click here to see my comments at my site.

Pastor AL said...

Tigernooga,
quote: "If the Bible were really words from a perfect God then it would be easily and perfect to understand."

At first, I did not understand the word of God. Nor, did I agree or obey it. Nevertheless, it kept calling me or my heart kept wandering back to it.

The word of God is a spiritual book and as you know, there is none like it. In order to understand the Bible you have to ask the author to help you. The author is the Holy Spirit. The bible is not meant to just be read, but to be studied and practiced. The bible is like a puzzle that must be discerned. Like a video game, once it answers one of your questions, you apply it to your life then you move on to a higer level.

At first, I rebelled against the Bible and I did not agree with it. Then, I understood that it was on a higher spiritual dimension. I wanted the bible to come down to my earthly state of mind till I realized, that God does not contradict himself or his word for no one. However, if someone is willing to journey towards a higher level to obey him. God will bless that individual.

I went to bible school for 2 years but even after, I struggled with the morals and high level of love that I must have for others. I could not, therefore, I reasoned and decided to just obey what I could and live the rest of my life according to my witts.

Time passed, I made bad decisions in almost every area of my life. I was depressed, bitter, and empty. I wanted to blame God but I couldn't because I never asked him to help prior to making decisions. I never took him serious enough to obey. I decided to start again with a different attitude. I stopped fighting God and I asked him for help.

Before, I had the idea that God had to do it my way. I wanted life to be easy. I began to mature in my way of thinking. God made life so we can learn to trust him.

In everyone's life, it comes to two things; pride or humility. I lived my life with pride. God resists the proud. Pride is evil and God will have nothing to do with it. When humility comes into our life then we will understand that we can't fight with God and win. He is God. He holds all the cards. He holds our eternity. He can do whatever he wants and who can stop him?

God does not need our permission to do anything. Once, I realized this I decided to change attitudes. Have you ever heard, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." The air that we breathe comes from God's wisdom. The food we eat. The water we drink. The sun that shines on us. Many people do not thank God. Instead they gripe against him. Why? People we do not want to humble ourselves to obey? We don't want to give control of our lives to God. Because he does not agree with our opinions, our carnal desires, our sins?

We are simply here to learn, understand his ways, and allow him to work in our thoughts, emotions, feeling, and heart. If we continue to resist God, many all over the world, will experience the emptiness and life will become meaningless. At this point many, have committed suicide without giving God a chance.

I love the bible. It now makes complete sense. I allow the Spirit of the bible to work in my life. There is no confusion. THE THEMES OF THE BIBLE IS THE SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF OUR HEARTS AND TEACHES US HOW TO FIND OUR WAY. Before, I was led by feelings now I learned to be led by God's Spirit. Where I had hate, now I have love. Where I was confused, now I have peace. Where I hade vengeance, now I have forgiveness. God is still working in my life, I am not perfect, but. OH, the joy that floods my soul. It is the joy of the Lord that really allows us to enjoy the moment!
Read my book, "Walking on Water" by Alfredo Martinez Jr. toll free (877)421-7323.

Now, you are right regarding the bible causing so much denominations and controversy. Let's take the field of medicine. In order to arrive to the knowledge we now have we had to experiment. Correct? In order to discern a continuous advancement in medicine we have to learn from the past and pass that knowledge forward. In five years we will have more understanding in medicine due to our trial and error experiments. Correct? The word of God is perfect. It is us as humans that are not. Through trial and error that gives us discernment, we are understanding more the spiritual depths of the word of God. Every generation passes on the torch of spiritual knowledge on to the next generation. When people do not want to move on with God then they create their religion or denomination. Jesus Christ never established a religion or a denomination. Man did that but God cannot be boxed by the human mind. The teachings of God are universal. "First commandment, Love God with all of your heart, mind, and strength. Second commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself."

God made science. How can science disprove God? Whenever man spoke it can be unscientific. For instance, when Joshua asked God to stop the sun. God knew what he meant. However, when God spoke, it is scientific. So scientific that all the scientific fields is still cathing up with it.

When man believed the earth was flat. They should have read the bible for it is written. "He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth." Isaiah 40:22. God spoke with Moses regarding sanitation rules and laws. If man kept them, the blubonick plague would not have cause so many deaths. Washing hands and of the body God commanded Israel to adhere and now with the understand of germs we undestand why. Just a couple of decades ago doctors were not washing their hands and were contaminating patients especially in pregancy. God spoke out of the whirlwind to job and described the depth of the ocean. It wasn't till recently that man discovered how accurate the word of God is. The word of God says that the univers is wearing out as a garment. Scientist are now confirming that. The word of God says he created the universe out of nothing; the scientist are not conforming that.etc.

As all the fields of science progress in knowledge, they will all point to the existence of God. Evolution is not science. It is a belief. There is no geological column. It is made up and only exists in the mind of man not in the physical realm. All of evolution began as a theory or a hypothesis with the expectation to be proven correct with time. The theory has failed.

If life did evolve, we should be up to our eye balls with bones. Yet, there are no transitional bones but all have been proven to be a complete species. Have you ever seen a species evolve into another species, so how you know evolution is correct? Because a man said so? No one has experienced evolution and no one will, not even fruitflies in labs with radiation. The geoligical column, and the ancestry tree, and the diagram that shows an ape evolving into a man only exists in the imagination of men. You need faith to believe in evolution. You need what Sponge Bob said, "IMAGINATION"

Evolution does not solve how life began nor how the universe began. Men is good at guessing and coming up with conclusions, and they believe their own lies. But the fact remains, they don't know because they weren't there.
I am a christian, Life began with God. The universe began with God. I am not a young earth creationalist. I do not agree with them on this point. The generation of men does take us to 6000 years ago but the generation of the heavens and of the earth no one knows. God does not tell us that the earth is 10,000 years old.

The bible does teach that God's time is not subject to our understanding of time. "For one day to God is a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day." 11 Pet. 3:8. Young earth creationalists assume the days of creation were a 24 hour periods but there is more than what meets the eye. They say Moses confirmed it and that Jesus confirmed it. Whenever they spoke of the creation they were never conforming a 24hr period but the importance of a weekly rest day for men. They say that the reputation of Christ rests on creation being a 24hr a Day. No! their reputation rests on it. It is call pride and having a chip on our shoulders. God asked Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" We need to respond as Job did regarding the timing of the creation of the universe for some dates are not revealed to us.

God gave everyone the power to choose. We can choose life or death Deut. 28-33. We can choose to live our lives with pride or humility. We can choose to accept what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross or we can choose to reject Jesus Christ. However, because we can choose we will also reap the consequences of our choices. The consequences of sin is death. In God's love, he became flesh and was tortured, he bled for your sins. He died on the cross for you so you can enter eternity. What more do you expect God to do for you? At the foot of the cross, people cursed him and said, "Prove to us that you are God! Come down from the cross! Save yourself!"

What more do you want from God? Accept him with a humble heart and ask him to help you understand his bible.
God Bless,
Pastor AL

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,

You did not reply to Merle's request that you give him a million dollars just like God told you to do. Are you trying to ignore God? Or are you finally using your common sense?
--julnee

Olivia said...

Hello,
I listened to this sermon that i thougth would be of interest to you and tigernooga (just cus it answered a bit of your question (?) i think..) it's about 40 minutes long.. which i can understand if you don't wanna listen to it all even though i foudn the whole thing interesting.. but i'd say still try to listen to the last ten minutes of it and see what you think..

http://www.summitchurch.cc/templates/cussummitchurch2/details.asp?id=29456&PID=319636&Style=&sermonsite_action=view_sermon&sermonsite_sermonid=14264
And it's titled "Transformation - The Book of Mark"

also, i read your autobiography and i know you said that you were saved and i am in no position whatsoever to question that belief of yours.. but becuase i am personally not yet saved but want to be.. i was wondering if you experienced a lot of joy (like more so after you were saved than before you were saved) and just KNEW that God was present when you were saved?? ooh and i was also wondering if you tried looking into other religions afterwrads?

also.. regarding the "what if the bible told you to kill innocent people" question.. i dont' see how it's relevent considering you're asking if he or any real believing christians would believe everythign the Bible says even if the bible asked them to kill innocent people but the thing is the bible DIDINT' ask them to kill innocent people.. (and i know there are examples in the bible where the Isrealis ahve been asked to kill everyone in cities but those were individual cases and i know that doesn't make killing less bad and woudl SEEM to make the bible contradictory but i am not a good person to explain or even attemtp to explain this so i don't want to get into this) If we are talking as though God (who is supposed to be Just and Loving and stuff) truly exist, then this God would not ask us to randomly kill people if He did then He wouldn't be the God He is supposed to be, so I don't think the question can be linked together.. gosh i'm terrible at expressing what i want to say.. you probably don't understand me.. but anywya.. last thing i want to say is that.. while there are many questionings of why God would allow this and that to happen.. all the tragedies.. I believe God gave us life, and so he can take them away in whatever manner He chooses to. Without Him, we wouldn't even be able to complain because we wouldn't even exist...

but yeah.. i feel like htere's more i want to say.. but oftentimes my mind forgets once i start typing.. but i do hope you'll have time to listen to the audio and stuff.. ok that is all.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
I have one more question.
If God created us and he knows what will happen in the future as he is the one who decides what happens in the future, wouldn't he be contradicting himself by 'deciding' that Adam would listen to Eve and therefore sinned against God? And it means that God himself had actually sinned against himself for making Adam committing sin. Does this actually make sense???
--julnee

Pastor AL said...

Merle,
On weekends I am very busy. Thanks for your patience.

I have read your reply. I apalogize for not remaining on the topic of evolution. So let's continue. (You have challenged me to better myself on this topic and I accept.)

If you do not mind, can we start slow? What is your definition of evolution?

Pastor AL said...

Olivia,
I tried to look up the website but I can't make out one character that looks like "&".

If you are referring to my autobiography then I will answer your questions.
You want to know if I experience joy. Yes Olivia. Once I humbled myself I understood that this pleased God. Once I believed in him and accepted Jesus Christ, I knew that I was at peace with God. There is a joy knowing that you are in God's will. Everything that comes into my life now, I know that God allows it to mold my character and make me a better person. I do not complain or gripe. I give God now my anger and frustrations. Peace and joy are my companions. I no longer have bitterness or any fears. I trust in God. If he placed harmony in the universe and in nature then I know that if we obey him, harmony will come into our lives. I can't explain the joy I have, you must experience it.

Olivia, God can meet you in whatever plain. If you want deep intellectual answers, God will provide them. If you want emotional answers, God will provide them. To God, it does not matter who we are or what we have done, he only asks that we accept him into our hearts. Jesus said: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him and he with me." Rev. 3:20
How complicated is that. It is so simple it takes man with big titles to confuse it.

God loves you and he wants to be with you and wants you to be with him forever. Just open your heart to him. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom. 10:9

No one can stop you from accepting Jesus into your heart. Although every demon in hell will try, every communist government will try, every evolutionist will try, but they have no power to stop an individual from accepting Jesus Christ. This choice is yours and yours alone.
Please read my book for further spiritual knowledge. "Walking on Water" by Alfredo Martinez Jr. (877)421-7323.

Regarding religions. I encourage you to read the gospels. Once you capture the spirit of the gospels then you want a church that preaches according to the gospels. You will know when something is wrong because your heart or the voice of your heart, the conscious, will tell you. I recommend a protestant church. Not catholic because the Word of God is not the final authority but man. For the same reason not other religions nor Mormons, because again, the Bible is not the final authority. Not Jehovah Witness because they don't believe in Jesus Christ as the messiah nor saviour.

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
I don't have a million dollars to give. Do you really believe that is what Jesus implied?

Jesus practiced what he preached. He gave everything he had for you.

Jesus said, "whoever asks of you, give."
A crippled beggar requested an offering from Peter and he replied, "Silver and gold I have none but what I have, I give unto you. In the name of Jesus, stand up and walk."

Money will not solve the spiritual void that torments people.
On one occasion, an evil man asked a man of God, to give him power to do miracles for exchange of money. Peter replied, "Thy money perish with thee because you thought that the gift of God can be purchased with money...thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore, of this thy wickedness and pray to God...for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." Acts 8:20-23
That evil man repented and is now with God. He had the spiritual insight to acknowledge God. He responded, "Pray ye to the Lord for me..." Acts 8:24

These commandments are for those that are mature in their relationship with God. You must first learn to walk before you can run. You must first must ask Jesus into your heart and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you before you have anything to give.

Your next question is beautiful. I do answer that question and much more in my book that I recommend you read. "Walking on Water" by Alfredo Martinez Jr. (877)421-7323
Nevertheless, I will soon post an answer.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al, Thanks for answering me patiently.
Money will not solve the spiritual void that torments people.
I agree with you. However, many religions, such as Buddhism, also teaches this. So, I don't find how Jesus/Christianity is the religion of God.
-julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
Everything makes perfect sense. This wisdom is awesome.

Do you think God is a fool? Adam and Eve sinned. Did God say, "Ooops, let's try plan B."

What I am about to tell you is revealed unto us in his Bible.

Before God created time, he knew the end of time. And eternal God or a God outside of time, holds the universe and time in his hand. Yet he lives in the heart of a believer.

Before he created anything he knew how it would end. "I am God and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are yet not done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure." Isaiah 46:9-10

Before God created anything, even before the first angel, he knew Lucifer would discern evil and turn from the word of God and truth. Before God created the heavens and filled it with his light, he knew Lucifer would turn to Satan and bring darkness. Before Adam and Eve sinned he knew Satan would deceive them. Before Adam sinned, God knew he would die for all humanity on the cross. Before you were born, God knew you. He knows everything about you. Everything you feel, say, think, or do. God knew that now, by his servant (Pastor Al), the plan of salvation would come into your life. You have a choice now. To accept what Jesus Christ did for you or reject Jesus Christ. He knows your answer. He knows therefore your present life and your eternity. There are only two great choices and there is only two roads. God has predestined some to be vessels of honor and some vessels of wrath. There are only two minds. Those that renew their minds with the word of God by bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ and those that have a reprobate mind and fulfill their fleshly fantasies. It has all been seen by God. However, you are not God yet you have the power of choice

The complete life story of Israel and the christian church has been outline in the bible. The complete course of humanity and the end of humanity has been outlined in his bible. The complete story of governments with end of one world government has been foretold in the bible. An increase in earthquakes, wars, pestilence, hunger, violence, floods has been foretold. Global warming has been foretold at the end days. Islands vanishing has been foretold. Evolution as turning many to fables has been foretold. Everything has been seen by God.

Why is so much evil coming to earth? Because so much evil is in the hearts of many and they do not repent from sin but curse and blaspheme God as it has already been foretold. People do not love God nor their neighbor but only themselves.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,

I do not think that being able to foretell/forecast something is equivalent to being God. The weather forecast service could predict the weather accurately and they are not worshipped as God. There are some Tibetan monks that were able to predict who they will reincarnate to before they die and those monks are not worshipped as God. They are Holy teachers.

Phenomena like hunger, earthquake, global warming can all be explained with Karma - the law of cause and effect. Global warming is due to human activities.

'Evil' is also due to Karma. For example, why did Bush declare war in Iraq. It is due to many causes. And the effects are still felt now. And the effects will become the causes that will result in other effects. It is a never-ending chain...

By the way, I was previously a Christian because I thought that God would forgive my sins just because Jesus died. But later, I found all the flaws in the Bible and so, I am no longer a Christian now.

Although I am not a Buddhist now, I do find that many Buddhist teaching is very relevant to my life. Buddha did not 'force' his followers to follow his teaching, but he asked them to test his teaching. I am now testing them, and I have not found any flaw yet.

Anyway, I believe the 'evil' in this world will end if everyone treats everyone (including animals and the environment) equally like how they want themselves to be treated.

--julnee

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

You asked me to define evolution. The definition at Wikipdedia is a good place to start: "In the life sciences, evolution is a change in the traits of living organisms over generations, including the emergence of new species. Since the development of modern genetics in the 1940s, evolution has been defined more specifically as a change in the frequency of alleles in a population from one generation to the next.In other fields evolution is used more generally to refer to any process of change over time. "

Biological evolution refers to the change in the genes of populations of creatures with respect to time. Science has shown that this process of biological evolution is responsible for the variations of life today.

Pastor AL said...

Merle,
Do you believe that this definition of evolution cancels out the existence of God? Or, do you believe that God exists and could have used evolution?

Quote: "Evolution is a change in the traits of living organisms..(or alleles - modern genetics) over generations (meaning lots of time), including the emergence of new organisms."

Is the following quote yours or still from the dictionary? "Science has shown that this process of biological evolution is responsible for the variations of life today."

Is evolution a religion or has science really shown biological evolution that is responsible for the variations of all life today? You a not saying that evolution could have been the reason for variation...you are declaring that it is the reason why we have variation. I am a skeptic. I do not believe everything I read. I am not a 5th grader that does not know how to ask questions. Therefore, proof to me that this statement is correct. What scientist has shown this process to be correct? Where are the scientific papers? If this statement is correct, show me the experiments that confirm the declaration of these statements.

Did the variation of life come through the process of mutation? What was the driving force behind the ability to change into a different species or organisms such as plants or fruit? Why was there a need for an onion, or an apple, or a banana, etc.? Did the onion turn into an apple, or did a cherry turn into an apple? WHY did nature decide this and HOW can nature decide this?

Give me proof. Not assumptions. Not maybes. Not "It could have happen this way". We believe, we think, scientists think...no, give me proof that backs up such a statement.

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
You and I and the rest of humanity, we find ourselves in the same boat called life. We are placed here not by our own will. Half of my life, I wished I was not born. But now, I realize that life is a precious, beautiful gift.

We're in the same boat and we,re heading for a destination. Therefore we ask deep questions to life's meaning.

I like to share with you what I think. I believe God gave us the ability to discern between good and evil. God gave everyone a heart where we understand. The voice of our heart is our conscious. We can sense that we are lying or doing an evil act that is wrong because God gave us that ability. Buddhism and many other religions of the world are simply men using their God given intuition to discern a better way of life or a higher road. Many spiritual leaders will discern a better way because there is a spiritual world that must be discerned. Many Indians in North America discerned the existence of God through this way and called him "The Great Spirit".
However, out of all the spiritual leaders none declared that he is the son of God, or equal to God, and that he is the only way to inherit salvation.

No other spiritual leader fulfilled so many prophecies in his life time. Everything that happened to Jesus, from his birth to his death, to his resurrection was foretold in the Old Testament at least 500 years prior. This is beyond chance, this is the foreknowledge of God.

No other spiritual leader gave his life as a sacrifice for you. I believe that if the other spiritual leaders would have heard Jesus Christ, they would have accepted him into their hearts because it is the next step of spiritual discernment.

Many other religions will teach you the importance of self power but there is another level that christians are now understanding. There is a higher level than will power or positive thinking or positive affirmation there is a level in faith where you simply trust God with your life. At this point, you come out of the boat and walk on water. A level where you know how to depend on this Spirit that is the architect of universe and life itself.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
You asked Merle to give you proof about how an onion turn to be an apple. Likewise, please give me a proof that Jesus is son of God.

In the Quran, Jesus is a prophet.

Even if Jesus claimed he is the son of God in the Bible, the Bible could be wrong because why can't this be wrong when there are numerous other mistakes in the Bible?

There could be various reasons why other spiritual leaders did not claim they were son of God. It's because they are truthful. :)

So is Jesus a liar? I don't know. But from my heart which God gave to discern the right and wrong, I believe that it is a strategy that the Catholic Church came up with in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that was me in the previous comment. I forgot to write my name.

Pastor Al,
I would like to add that I truly believe that one have to 'earn it' on his/her own and could not just get eternal life just because someone claimed to die for my sins.

I believe that Jesus showed the way we could lead our life. Not to claim arrogantly that he died so that our sins can be forgiven.

-julnee

Olivia said...

Hey sorry about the link.. it actually didn't even show up completely.. -_-'' i hope it'll show up correctly this time.. but the weird sign that showed up was supposed to be a & (shift + 7) sign.. ok it won't show that sign but yeah if you guys don't find it too annoying.. and i'm so sorry for the inconvenience! but yeah that weird sign is really teh "and" sign (shift + 7) so there would be 4 weird signs that need to be replaced...

http://www.summitchurch.cc/
templates/cussummitchurch2/details.asp?id=29456&PID=319636&Style=
&sermonsite_action=view_sermon
&sermonsite_sermonid=14264
(sorry had to cut this to pieces cus it won't show completely)

but yeah it's titled transformation -book of mark..

thank you so much for your reply.. i think i'm a bit like the peopel mentioned in the audio above.. and i know it's supposed to be so easy! and yet.. i can't seem to get past this hurdle! it's frustrating but i don't want to give up! and yet to some extent i think i did.. (cus i would stop wanting to pray and read the bible)..

ok sorry there's more i'd like to respond to but have too much! work so i just wanted to see if i can post up the right link.. hope it'll work this time!

Olivia

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
What type of proof do you want? Do you want proof of God's existence or that Jesus is God or that Jesus did exist?
You do understand that everything can be argued both ways? I can even prove we do not exist. Eventually everyone has to believe in something. Many believe that money is their god and they worship it. Money has power, money talks, money makes the world go round. But as you know, it is only temporal. There is more to life than money. Have you ever witness a rich man dying of a desease? One rich man cursed life and death with his last breath. Money could not save him.

Faith is powerful. By faith God created our world and us. By faith he created the physical laws. God declares, "the just shall walk by faith." Life without faith is horrible. Life with faith is powerful. People who have faith have accomplished so much. Our technoloy is based on people who believed and went against all doubt and conquerored.
Faith puts you on top of the world and doubt puts you in the valley. You do know what I mean by valley? Doubt gives birth to fears, worry, insecurities, depression, etc. See, this things are spiritual. God wants you to conquer the valley and live your life on the mountain top. The way to the mountaintop is faith. Faith gives birth to hope, trust, peace, love, freedom, etc. This is what life is all about.

I am a minister, I deal with people. Some do not understand, that they have doubts in God's word and therefore live their lives with fear and worry. I help them to restore their faith. Once they find faith again, they find meaning for existence. However, I can give you all the proof you want but if you do not exercise faith, there is nothing anyone can do for you, not even God. "But as many as received Jesus Christ, to them gave he power to become sons of God, to them that believe in his name." John 1:12
The highest level of faith is in God and in the Bible.

Jesus Christ declared, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but by me." John 14:6. Everything that Jesus said was true, even if we do not agree with it or understand it, it is still truth. It is written, "Am I therefore, become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Gal. 4:16. What is truth? Every word that comes from the mouth of God is truth. Jesus Christ declared, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away." "What shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therfore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."Mark 8:37-38.

If truth exists then there exists a liar. Satan. He twists the bible and even tempted Jesus Christ with the bible. If the bible is the word of God, he will do everything to put doubt in people's heart and steer them away from the bible. Life is a spiritual war of light and darkness.

Jesus is who he says he is or he is crazy, completely out of his mind. Have you read the gospels? Well, Julnee, is Jesus crazy or does he know something we don't? Jesus Christ said, "For God so loved the word, that the gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

There have been many conspiracies against the word of God. I don't know about this catholic conspiracy that you mentioned. People and governments have stood against the word of God. Governments and people have come and gone yet the Bible is still the top seller in the world. People are still continually trusting in Jesus Christ. The word of God is being preached to all nations as Jesus prophesied. Satan told Eve, "Did God REALLY SAY you should not eat..." Doubt in the word of God has existed since the beginning. However, the weight upon faith is tremendous, because our eternity hinges on it. Who will you trust with your soul and your eternity? Are you trusting in Merle or any other skeptic who are spiritually ignorant and blind or Jesus Christ who died on a cross for your sins, rose on the 3rd day, now is sitting at the right hand of the father and is waiting for your decision? God is not found in the mind but in a broken heart. "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, WITH HIM ALSO THAT IS OF A CONTRITE AND HUMBLE SPIRIT, to revive the spirit of the humble and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." Isaiah 57:15

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
I reread your previous comments.

The gospels were written before the catholic church came into existence.

What does the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the blood of Jesus mean to you?

(Sorry, if I am swept away by theology. I want to understand what you are trying to tell me.)

TigerNooga said...

http://home.comcast.net/~mickey.williams/Wonderwhy.htm

Check out this website. It is mine.

TigerNooga said...

http://home.comcast.net/~mickey.williams/Wonderwhy.htm

Ok, it did not copy right the first time. Here it is again.

TigerNooga said...

Ok, it cuts off the last three letters. It ends with .htm
just add that and it will take you there.

Pastor AL said...

Tigernooga,
Do you believe in God?

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

Sorry it took so long to reply. (Your words are in bold below.)

Do you believe that this definition of evolution cancels out the existence of God? Or, do you believe that God exists and could have used evolution?

No, evolution does not cancel out God, any more than the development of a human from a fertilized egg cancels out God. A God could use the process of gradual change to create. In fact, you probably believe that is how God created you, that he allowed the fertilized egg that you came from to gradually change by natural processes until it became an infant and later an adult.

Similarly, a God could have evolved humans from microbes. Many Christians believe in evolution.

Is the following quote yours or still from the dictionary? "Science has shown that this process of biological evolution is responsible for the variations of life today."

This is my statement. Mainstream science has shown overwhelming evidence that evolution has produced the varieties of life we see today.

Is evolution a religion or has science really shown biological evolution that is responsible for the variations of all life today? You a not saying that evolution could have been the reason for variation...you are declaring that it is the reason why we have variation.

No, evolution is not a religion. It is a science. It is based on the evidence. See 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.

And yes, the evidence is so strong, we can declare assuredly that evolution happened.

I am a skeptic. I do not believe everything I read. I am not a 5th grader that does not know how to ask questions. Therefore, proof to me that this statement is correct. What scientist has shown this process to be correct? Where are the scientific papers? If this statement is correct, show me the experiments that confirm the declaration of these statements.

I am glad you do not believe everything you read, and that you are a skeptic.

But if you are faced with overwhelming evidence, are you still skeptical, or do you conclude, at least tentatively, that the conclusion backed by overwhelming evidence must be true?

You ask for the scientific papers verifying evolution. There are thousands of such papers. The link I mention above lists dozens of papers that show the evidence for evolution.

Did the variation of life come through the process of mutation? What was the driving force behind the ability to change into a different species or organisms such as plants or fruit?

The driving force behind evolution was natural selection. Those individuals that were best fitted to survive passed their genes on to the next generation.

Why was there a need for an onion, or an apple, or a banana, etc.? Did the onion turn into an apple, or did a cherry turn into an apple? WHY did nature decide this and HOW can nature decide this?

No, the cherry did not turn into an apple. Rather, both the cherry and the apple descended from early fruit-bearing trees that evolved in different directions.

Why was there a need for apples and cherries? Originally crude apples and cherries were needed by trees to spread their seeds. But the wild apples and cherries were small, and not worth much to humans. It has only been in recent times that people have learned how to breed these trees so that they would develop the kinds of fruits that we love to eat. These trees did not grow in the wild. Rather, people guided the process of evolution so that they appeared.

So modern apples and cherries exist because we as humans guided the process of evolution to produce these fruits.

Similarly, people took wild dogs, and bred them for different purposes, leading to the many breeds we see today. There never was a time when wild poodles roamed the earth. Rather, people took wild dogs, and guided the process of evolution to produce poodles.

Give me proof. Not assumptions. Not maybes. Not "It could have happen this way". We believe, we think, scientists think...no, give me proof that backs up such a statement.

Proof? I think you misunderstand science. Science does not work with proof. It works with evidence. And the link I gave shows the evidence.

There is so much evidence that the earth is round, for instance, that scientists state it as a fact, even though they cannot prove it. Similarly, there is so much evidence that evolution occurred, that scientists state it as a fact.

Pastor AL said...

Merle,

BUT IF YOU ARE FACED WTIH OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE, ARE YOU STILL SKEPTICAL, OR DO YOU CONCLUDE, AT LEAST TENTATIVELY THAT THE CONLCLUSION BY OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE MUST BE TRUE?

According to what you wrote. Your word for "evidence" should actually be called assumptions or reasons and not evidence. The word evidence misleads people. Many lay people continually speak of overwhelming evidence and mountains of evidence. However, you will not hear scientists or biologists or geologists speak in those terms especially after 1980.

Many real things can be proven. The earth being round is not a theory, it is a fact. Any satellite can take a picture and there is your proof. It is a weak analogy used by evolutionists to compare the theory of evolution with other theories. The so called evidence for evolution can be observed many ways, however, we are biased and we choose to observe the "evidence" through our own perspective.

The point is, you can't prove evolution. Evolutionist have tried but still, there is no observable macro-evolution and there will not be any. Therefore, you need faith to believe that natural selection or mutation caused all species in the world. Because I am here, there that proves evolution or we don't want any morals imposed on us by a higher being therefore we rather lean towards the "evidence" that confirm evolution.

Basically here are the major evidences why you chose to believe in macro evolution and the reason why you want everyone to believe as you do:
1.Darwin wrote an influential book 2.Morgan studied fruit flies 3.Every living thing has chromosones 4.People age as they become older 5.All living things have cells 6.All birds have feathers 7.Woodpeckers punch holes in trees 8.birds breed in different climates 9.There are both light and dark moths 10.Some species have become extinct 11.Mendel discovered inheritance patterns. 12.Coin tossing exemplifies evolution 13.DNA is the key to inheritance 14.Variance exist among people 15.Changes have taken place within species 16.Mutations produce weak characteristics 17.Migration may cause evolution 18.Mating preferences can cause evolution 19.Predatory killing can cause evolution 20.Owls eat white mice first 21.Birds eat peppered moths 22.Different bears or horses are different sizes 23.Mutation produces sickle cell anemia 24.A fish must have climbed out of water 28.Given millions of years, time can produce evolution 29.Some earlier people lived in caves. 30.Cave paintings have been found. 31.mammals have similar joints and bones and structures.

Are these the "evidences" why you chose not to believe in God and believe in evolution? Are these the evidences why you declare that evolution assuredly happened?

Current science agrees with the biblical statement in Genesis, "every living thing produces after its kind."

QUOTE: "THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND EVOLUTION WAS NATURAL SELECTION."

This is a huge statement. Do you know how natural selection works? Or, anybody for that matter? I can make clever assumption but does that prove it really happened?

Natural selection? Who selected what? Nature or time? Can natural selection or time have the wisdom or capacity to create life? Does sand and water have the wisdom to develop a living cell? If brainless matter as water and sand can develop a living organism, surely we can also, why then haven't we?

Scientist are beginning to realize how complicated a living cell truly is. Here are what experts, professionals and scientists are saying:

"The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the product of imagination." Dr. Albert Fleischman

"It is almost invariably assumed that animals with bodies composed of a single cell represent the primitive animals from which all others derived. They are commonly supposed to have preceded all other animal types in their appearance. Thre is not the slightest basis for this assumption." Austin Clark, the new evolution (1930) PP.235-236

"The hypotheses that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith." J.W.N. Sullivan, The Limitations of Science (1933) P95

"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it." H. Lipson, "A Physicist looks at Evolution." (1980) p 138

"With the failure of these many efforts, science was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of having to postulate theories of living origins which it could not demonstrate. After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create a mythology of its own: Namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past." Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey, (1957) p199

"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed. At least I should hardly be accused of having started from any preconceived antievolutionary standppoint." H. Nilsson, Synthetic Speciation (1953) p31

"It is therefore of immediate concern to both biologists and layman that darwinism is under attack. The theory of life that undermined nineteenth-century religion has virtually become a religion itself and, in its turn, is being threatened by fresh ideas. The attacks are certainly not limited to those of the creationists and religious fundamentalists who deny darwinism for political and moral reason. The main thrust of the criticism comes from with in science itself. The doubts about darwinism represent a political revolt from within rather than a siege from without." -B. Leith, The Descent of Darwin: A Handbook of Doubts about Darwinism (1982) p11

Here are what few professionals are saying. Bottom line, you choose to believe in evolution rather than creation. It has nothing to do with facts or evidence because facts and evidence can be produced by both parties.

Why should I leave my faith to believe in your faith? If I am wrong and you are right, then it doesn't matter we will eventually die and everything ends? But if I am right and you are wrong, then you messed up big time for eternity.

As a former christian you know that pride has always been the reason that keeps man from God. Satan is the father of pride.

I have struggled with pride and humility of my heart. This is the struggle we all have to undergo. I have realized that I can not fight God and win. You still believe you can outwit God.

TigerNooga said...

Pastor Al,
You really need to stop getting your science, or refutation of it, from religious sources.
check out this website: About Science and Creationism from the National Academy of Science.

http://newton.nap.edu/html/creationism/

The theory of evolution is as strong as ever and there is evidence for it, and even transitional fossils

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

See my response at Response to Pastor Al.

Pastor AL said...

Merle,

What do I put in place of evolution? Genesis chapter 1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God created all living things. Both matter and life came from God. Evolutionists do not have a clue where matter and life came from they only have fairy tales that need your faith.

Now, I am lobbying to change the textbook curriculum in our public schools. I want to replace the evolution theory with TRUTH AND WITH SCIENCE THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN!

If a child asks where did life originate, let us have the character to admit the truth. Let us respond, "At the moment we have not proven anything scientifically. However, we have two philosophical theories that both require faith. First, we have the evolution theory, that life evolved over a million and million of years. Second, In the beginning God created everything."

If evolution was proved and a fact then it would not be a theory. You have referred me to websites and I have looked at them but it is all relative. To me, all these websites put on a song and a dance. They dazzle you with sneers at creationalism and confirm the statements that they have all the evidence but thats it.

Natural selection explains the variety within a species. No matter how different a dog is, it is still a dog. Natural selection fails to provide evidence of one species changing to another species, no matter if billion of years have gone by. Do you really believe that time has a way of experimenting and deciding which organ or cell or tissue works best? In a time where there was no eye, how did time know how to create and eye? Or, ear, sonar, etc? You keep saying that it's all possible given enough time. When will you realize that time, no matter how much is given, cannot create complex organisms? Given all the time in the world, not even you can create a living organism unless you are God. Evolution truly is a fairy tale for grown ups. You rather believe in man than in God? As a former christian I'll remind you what God says about this attitude, "Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord." Jer. 17:5

However, I have the character to admit that faith is required to believe that God created everything, (Although, I cannot see anything contrary). You however, can not admit that evolution is a faith. You have to believe that life spontaneously occurred without proof. You need to believe in a primorial soup without proof. You need to believe that time somehow had wisdom and experimented and invented organs without proof. You have to believe that that species changed into different speceies without proof.

I admit that there are many questions that we will never have an answer to or that I will have an answer. Nevertheless, I do not need an answer to every question because it is insignificant to accomplishing the purpose why God placed us on earth. I am at peace. I do not understand why you are so driven to understand how a zebra came into being? However, in a couple of more years we will all have the privelege to stand before God and ask him. At the moment I seek more important answers as to how to please God with my life.

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

See my response at Response #6.

Pastor AL said...

Merle,

I believe that God created living things spontaneously. That is my faith in what God said in Genesis. Every living creature was created in the beginning fully formed with the ability within the gene pool to adapt to the environment.

I admit it requires faith in God. I am not trying to win our debate because both our arguments depend on faith; but please try not to confuse what I am saying.

I am not confused, I know exactly what I believe and I have no doubts.

There is evidence that animals had to be fully formed in order for their body to function as a whole. If you study any organ, it had to be fully formed or else it would not work. According to evolution, natural selection, a non working organ should have been discarted. It is impossible for time to develop any organ or to better an existing organ.

You yourself has quoted evolutionists saying that, "...an eye could have formed." You have to have faith that an eye formed itself without any hard evidence. Common sense says you need faith in such an act occurring by itself. Contemporary genetics is proving that such an act is impossible given any amount of time. It is a fairy tale that an eye formed itself out of nothing. You need to have faith that time somehow has the wisdom and understand to create and organize. I have faith that God created all organs and created harmony nature; withing plants, insects, animals, and nature. Only wisdom could create what we see and not time.

So here we are. Evolution is a religion because it requires your faith to believe animals evolved over millions of years. I have my faith that God spontaneously created all living things and blessed them. Therefore, I ask textbooks to removed all religions from the classrooms. Why should I have my child be taught the religion of evolution? Let evolution and creationalism be placed in philosopy classes. If you want to believe in evolution, go right ahead but don't indoctrinate my child with false assumptions.

Merle Hertzler said...

Pastor Al,

I responded at Response #7.

Merle

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
Sorry for not replying sooner. I was away and do not have internet access.

You said:” Our technoloy is based on people who believed and went against all doubt and conquerored.”
What do you mean? Do you mean those technology that we have today are based on people who believed in Jesus? If that is what you meant, then you are wrong. Just for a simple example of paper. The Chinese were not Christians when they invented it.
But if you meant that the technology we have today is based on people who believed in their own abilities, then I agree with you.

I agree that faith gives birth to hope. But blind faith gives to self-deception. Which is why I need proof and evidence on things I believe in. : )

Yes, I read the 4 gospels before many times but did not actually finish reading the whole Bible.

“Jesus Christ said, "For God so loved the word, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16”

A friend of mine actually inteprets this passage as:
It meant that God loved the world so he sent his Son (sort of like a representative but not biologically his son) to show the world how we should behave morally. My friend inteprets “believing” as in following Jesus’ teachings and be enlightened, but not merely believing he is Son of God and our sins are forgiven.

So I guess everyone could just interpret the bible to suit their way. :)

I have to point out to you that being a best seller do not mean anything actually. Harry Potter books are bestsellers and I am a fan of them. But that does not mean I will worship Harry Potter.

Currently I am in the process of experimenting and searching like Buddha taught. So you can say that I am trusting on myself. What I do now will affect my future. It is true because if I do not work hard, I will suffer later. but if I work hard, I will feel secure and reap the benefits in the future.

--julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
Yes, about faith in our abilities or simply having faith to accomplish things. I believe God gave us the ability to believe in something and make it happen. I believe God wants us to live with faith and the opposite of not living with faith is doubt, worry and fear.
Also, there are levels of faith. You can believe in your abilities and accomplish great things on earth. The bible teaches and encourages believers "I can do all things through Christ which strengths me."
The highest form of faith,though, is to have faith in God and in his word. I know our minds seek proof. The bible teaches that it is with the heart that we believe.

It is not enough that Jesus said he was the only way to heaven and eternal life for you? It is not enough that he healed and did miracles? Buddha, is an awesome teacher, but..and this is a big but, he never taught that you can inherit eternal life through him.
Do me a big favor, research this site www.near-death.com
Our eternity is at stake here. Eternity is too long for us not to talk about it. Smart people prepare for their retirement which only lasts for about 5 years. However, wisdom is preparing for eternity and not many people are prepared to stand before our Creator because they ignored him on earth and ignored his commandments.
Now, Julnee, I encourage you to continue to see wisdom. According to the teachings of the Bible, Jesus spoke the truth but there is another who is described as a serpent and a roaring lion who is only trying to deceive us and keep us from the truth.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
Thanks for willing to discuss with me. Many Christians would be angered if others did not acknowlegde their belief.

Well, I just read an article abt Gnostic Christians. They are quite similar to Buddhists. http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/

Also, Jesus did not said he is the ONLY way but he said he is the way. I came across this site which I quite agree with. http://www.jesus-christ.ws/

I quote "To think that salvation can be had by simply mouthing the words, “I believe in Jesus” is nothing but pure laziness." from the above site. This is what I was trying to tell you earlier. During the time when I was a new-born-Christian, this feeling kept creeping up that I felt that having said I accepted Jesus is not enough to gain entrance to Heaven.

You gave me this website but there is way too much for me to read. What are you trying to convey to me? Because I read a bit and it sort of gave more examples that reincarnation& karma as thought by Buddha is true. I am quite sure you did not want to prove that Buddha has the right teachings?
--julnee

Anonymous said...

Dear Pastor Al,
I re-read your last paragraph and felt that you must have thought I have no plans for eternity. Well for one, I believe there is reincarnation/life after life. I guess, I conciously started to think over my bad habits and feel that I have to change because if not, this will be carried over in my next life and it will be even more difficult for me to get rid of.

I had always love certain animals and always regarded some other animals are OK to be eaten and my Christian friends said God made animals for humans so it is fine to eat them. But ever since giving up on being a Christian, I emphathize more for the life of animals and I am now a vegetarian. For Buddhists, this is sort of saving up for your 'future' but I definitely didn't become a vegetarian just because of Buddhist teachings. I became a vegetarian because I love animals and I don't want to be a hypocrit.

I believe I have to cultivate myself more as I humbly accept I am imperfect. Hence, with examples from Jesus and Buddha, I can learn to live like they did. :)

--julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
You are correct when it comes to most christians being offended by disbelief of others.

I personally am not offended. It saddens my heart, though. Many family members do not believe. It is their choice and no one can do nothing about it, not even God.

Why are christians offended? Why does it sadden my heart? I will try to share the reasons why. See we believe in Jesus Christ being the ONLY way to eternal life. He said it, did signs and wonders to confirm it, his whole life is completely backed up by Old Testament prophecy. His life was not a coincidence but his complete life was planned before the creation of man and was revealed in the Old Testament. No other person who has lived had his completely life prophesied before hand. If you research this one thought, you will realize that this could only be God's doing and not man.

We believe in Only Jesus being the saviour because he said so. He also warned to watch out for false Christs and teachers. In our way of believing it is only Jesus Christ that we inherit eternal life therefore, every other way is a lie, a false road, a deception of the enemy. You may feel that this is simply being narrow minded. However, we believe it is the truth. We simply take God at his word. Nothing complicated. Jesus said he is the only way to the Father and I believe it and follow him.

I personally realized that there is no truth in me, in my intellect, or in man but in something higher than man that made man and that is God who in these last 2000 years has revealed himself to us as Jesus Christ.

We believe it is not wise to fight the truth since the truth will not change. We believe it is wisdom to understand the truth, accept it, and apply it to our life. Christians see other people who do not accept this truth as being deceived by the devil and are in rebellion against the truth. It saddens my heart because we are only given a moment of time on earth to come to grips with the truth. After our decisions here on earth, everyone will eventually see the truth after death, and God will separate those who practice their faith in Jesus to heaven and those who rebelled against the truth, along with the deceiver of nations to hell for eternity.

You are correct in saying that there is more to salvation than simply mentally believing in Jesus Christ. Well, what the New Testament teaches that if you truly believe that Jesus is the son of God and the only way to salvation then you become his follower or disciple. Jesus said, "Deny yourself, carry your cross and follow me." I am a pastor and I have seen countless of people come and go. They are seeking some magic formula that will make them feel good. They are trying to find God in their feelings. God is not there, so they leave.

God is not found in the flesh, nor in the soul, but in a higher spiritual realm that is only attain through humility, a broken heart, a token of homeage to God. This wisdom is awesome that is only understood by those who deny themselves, carry their cross and follow Jesus.

When it comes to eating animals. You can make your choices to eat animals or not. Yet, as a christian, I only subject my will to obedience of the New Testament. There it says, that I can eat anything God created with thanks giving as your christian friend said. I don't feel like a hypocrite because it is not about feelings, it is about obedience. A higher learning of spiritual things is no longer being led by feelings but by the Spirit. This teaching is lacking in our christian churches. The world is led by their feelings, by their desires, by their reason, by their emotions, and this is a low road that leads to the bondage of feelings as being insecure, victims, worthless, proud, frustrated, depressed, etc. These are spiritual things but the way of God's Spirit is above these things, it is the way of inner power and strength that is attained through God's grace.

Julnee, I just shared with you a little of what God has for us. A higher power than ourselves that wants to come into our lives. These things are beautiful, they are like jewels or pearls. Yet, there is so much more, but an individual who only lives in pride and selfishness can not understand and only questions the beauty of God's Spirit.

Anyone who wants to understand more, God is willing to share more. However, these things are not for debate. God undestands our point of view but we must understand his point of you that encampasses all the wisdom of men and add unto it, God's shared wisdom. It is about being or not being, not about simply mentally understanding but devoting your entire being to God. It is about arriving to a higher level.

I would love to share with you more but your unbelief in Jesus Christ only tells me that I am throwing away pearls. However, if you have an open heart I will love to share. If however, you only want to debate and speak from your point of view, I have nothing more to say to you than simply...live long and prosper.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,

Well, I am no longer a "Christian" like as in the conventional ones, but I do still believe Jesus came to earth to do good things to show us the way to lead our life.

I think you had mistook what I said about being a hypocrite for eating animals. I meant myself as a hypocrite if I claimed to love animals but still eat them.

But since you brought this up, I googled "jesus and vegetarian" and saw this interesting website. http://www.jesusveg.com/popular.html

I believe Jesus is merciful and will not kill animals for food. Just like what my Christian friend once told me that there is no longer a need for us to make lamb sacrifice to God, since Jesus is the lamb of God. I think this means God is telling us not to kill animals. Please do tell me your opinion.

-julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
No, I did not take your comment personal. I knew you were referring to yourself but I identified myself with your comment.

I read the jesus veg website. It is incredible how easily we can use the bible to say what we want.

Personally, as a minister the bible clearly teaches that I will be held in a greater level of accountability towards my use of his bible. The Bible clearly states that we can not add unto it or take away from it. The bible also teaches that we should study it and meditate on it to capture the correct spirit in which it was written.

So, julnee, by your comments, I guess you attended college. Do you have your own family? I assume you are in your late 20's.

I just wrote a comment under the heading "Answers in Genesis". Let me know what you think.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,

Yes, I do agree that many people had exploited religion and the Bible is definitely vulnerable to this. For example, different denominations continually 'backstab' each other. I've heard more than once that Catholics said what they believed is the right way and that Protestants are not the "original" Christians. Meanwhile, the Protestants said that Catholics do not "learn" from the Bible but obeyed what were taught by the Pope. Sigh... I don't understand why do they have this "I am right, You are wrong" mentality eventhough they claimed to believe in God and Jesus as their saviour.

Yes, you guessed correctly. I have not started a family yet.

I've made a reply to you at "Answers in Genesis".

-julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
Which denomination is correct? Yes, there is differences in doctrines with denominations...and even within denominations. Through out history catholics and protestants have killed each other over such differences.

However, truth is simple. Man complicates everything. Nevertheless, the more you study the bible, the more interesting, precious, and eventually...the more spiritual it becomes.

There has to be a basis for truth. We have the Old Testament, which the jewish people have faught so hard throughout history to preserve. Archaeology has only proven the OT correct.

Sure, there will always be critics...such people can hardly believe that a fly can fly. Yet, as time goes by more archaeological evidence has come to light. Now, no one can refute the authentity of the OT. I urge you to study biblical archaeology.

The old testament pointed to a messiah and gave many specific profecies to "how", "why", "where","what", that messiah will do. When that messiah came forth and fulfilled all the OT prophesies, the jewish nation did not recognize him as the messiah but rejected Jesus Christ. Now, we have the New T. All christian denominations have the four gospels. That alone is the basis for truth. Every word that came forth out of the mouth of Jesus is truth. Then after we have the writing of the apostles that correlate or expand what Jesus said. You can put your faith in Christ's words. His words alone garauntees you salvation and hope in eternity.

The problem is, small interpretations to what Jesus said or the apostles. Everyone has their view point and opinions. That is how denominations spring up. Man will always try to control and manipulate everthing...it is human nature but Jesus teaches death to human nature to be spiritual nature but the majority of people prefer to love more their flesh than to love God.

We are all learning to grow up spiritually. Some people never grow up and will love more this world and their flesh than spiritual things and eternal things.

Don't jugde Jesus by what christians do or say. Being narrow minded, and quarreling is not according to the teachings of Jesus. He said not to judge each other.

You are on a spiritual quest and so am I. The only difference is that I eventually decided to accept the words of Jesus Christ as final authority in my life. I took the challenge of God to carry my cross and follow him.

You wrote in another blog how God communicated to other people who never heard the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. Romans 2:12-15 states that God made a "conscious". When those people who never heard about Jesus die then their conscious will excuse them or condemn them when they stand before God. However, when I heard the message of Jesus Christ, I knew I had a bad conscious so I humbled myself asked forgiveness, repented and have become a disciple of Jesus Christ. That simple.

Julnee, you are coming to the realization that there is no salvation in man or in yourself. That is the realization that I came to. Salvation lies outside of us and it is only found in the son of God, Jesus Christ.

I know that sometimes the bible is hard to understand and it discourages many christians. (Heck, I personally dropped everything in my life and went to full time study of the bible for 2 years.) I encourage you to continue to seek truth and ask God to reveal to your heart his great love.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
How do you know that Jesus' alone is salvation? If it is from the bible, then, I do not agree because there are obvious mistakes in the Bible.
So, in conclusion, I will only learn from the good examples that Jesus set. I believe we can learn a lot from him but he's definitely not salvation.
--julnee

Pastor AL said...

Julnee,
Where else can you find salvation?
If you place your faith on something else than the son of God, how do you know that you are not deceiving yourself?

Our faith in ourselves will not save us. Our opinions will die with us. Our opinions only amount to a hill of beans. However, the words of Jesus Christ will last forever.

Man's pride in his own wisdom is vanity.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Al,
You took so long to reply and even that, you couldn't give a concrete evidence that Jesus = Salvation.
Anybody can promise salvation to anyone and that does not prove him/her to be correct/is the salvation.
Haven't you read before news of cult leaders promising salvation to ppl in mass suicide?

I believe that no one can offer salvation but it is through cultivating myself that I attain enlightenment. :)

-julnee

Anonymous said...

Julnee,

Could I please ask what you consider to be the ‘obvious mistakes’ that keep you from believing that salvation is through Jesus Christ?


Honey

Anonymous said...

Honey,

Here's one of the websites that listed the 'mistakes' that I think should not be in an Almighty God's book.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

Although I don't agree to everything listed, there are some that seem irrefutable to me.

The lesson I learn from this is, to learn what's good about Jesus and dismiss those bad stuff. I do understand that what's good for me might not be good for others. So the best way is to keep an open mind. :)

--julnee

Anonymous said...

Julnee,

Sorry I didn't read your reply until today. I forgot I had written here.
Thanks for the link to the site. I haven't had a look there yet and I am sure it would take some considerable time to go through everything. May I ask what error from that page you consider to be the most irrefutable, or just the one that you would most like to see an answer for.

Honey

Anonymous said...

PS. I haven't found any bad stuff yet :-)

Honey

Merle Hertzler said...

Honey,

How hard have you looked?

Merle

Anonymous said...

Lol...ah yep...I never went looking for any.

Honey

Anonymous said...

Um...I just had a look again at my comment and wanted to clarify for anyone reading later, that when I said "I haven’t found any bad stuff yet" I was referring to the Bible. I cannot say the same about the site Julnee posted a link for.

I have had a look at the site, and unfortunately the writers of sites such as these demonstrate that they have no understanding of the Bible's spiritual nature. They obviously do not look for the answers to their concerns within the Bible itself, because certainly if they had done so they would have found many.

Honey